Author Topic: Strat economics discussed after news from chadz.  (Read 6787 times)

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Offline Olwen

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Re: Strat economics discussed after news from chadz.
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2011, 05:27:44 pm »
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i think that a tax should be implemented as in last strategus for people who stay in cities/villages

Offline Keshian

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Re: Strat economics discussed after news from chadz.
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2011, 05:34:16 pm »
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My biggest concern is that if it is too difficult to make goods/equipment and troops and gold that we have clans spending 1-2 months just to equip one army and then they fight with another army or attack a town/castle/village and lose most of the troops and go back to grinding equipment/gold/troops for 2 more months.  Part of the fun was being able to find a battle most times of the day on any given day.  If it becomes too grinding to get an army, people will fight less, fearing to risk what they have made and there will be less to fight with so there might only be 1 strategus fight a day at best, typically a really small fight.  This would get boring all too quickly waiting for something to happen as it would become more a market/trading/producing game (plenty of those already) than an actual extension of cRPG battle fighting.  Each battle was unique and had a lot more thrill than typical battle/siege servers and is much of the draw for strategus and also having interesting use of coordinated tactics where every player is one you personally are recruiting and paying.

Obviosuly don't know how it will be when it comes out, but its definitely something to be aware of to keep things interesting.


to irony commentary below, market trading/grinding game would lose most of the strategy as very few battles and obviously less tactics as so rarely an occasion to use them.  (i don't think you understand - tactics is immediate battle plans like flank left or ambush, etc. which can only occur in an actual battle.  less abttles = less opportunity to use tactics.  Strategy is an overall plan outside but also including battles including equipment, food, transport, etc. and with fewer battles and a much slower paced game there is less active attention to these things as everything takes weeks to months) 

Who doesn't like to change it up from battle/siege server and try cool battles on strategus?  If we only have 1-2 battles a day many people will only rarely (best mercs usually hired when fewer fights) get to experience strategus fights and will lose interest.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 01:18:32 am by Keshian »
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Offline Olwen

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Re: Strat economics discussed after news from chadz.
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2011, 05:40:23 pm »
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yeh retarded fighting is way more interesting than developing strategy and tactic on a map

/irony off

and to the answer up there, you think that less battles with more important stuff means less tactics ? fail
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 06:13:03 pm by Olwen »

Offline Torp

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Re: Strat economics discussed after news from chadz.
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2011, 08:12:04 pm »
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i fear too much leeching on public servers.

Imo the besst thing would be to keep cRPG and strategus finances seperate... but thats just me :)


Edit:
If you must have a wipe, you should combine it with a clan/alliance 'winning' so it won't seem as a wipe as much as a new 'round' of strategus.
I know several games that has this feature, and it makes the wipe less annoying.
Perhaps say the clan with most land or most value of total items (calculated?) is the winner or the alliance with most or something.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 08:18:51 pm by Torp »

Offline Dezilagel

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Re: Strat economics discussed after news from chadz.
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2011, 10:10:59 pm »
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Yah, the leeching is what would be my biggest concern.

Imagine entire clans just ab00zing the crap out of DTV to get strategus gold...
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Offline PhantomZero

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Re: Strat economics discussed after news from chadz.
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2011, 12:17:01 am »
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I still haven't figured out how gold is going to get into Strategus. If it is straight from cRPG then the powergrinder heirloom masters with their millions of hoarded gold will make gold worthless or essentially run strategus. A self-contained strategus is best with options to allow money to transfer into cRPG (Giving a reason to play strategus even if it is to just farm/mine and not participate in any battles), of course in this instance upkeep on items would have to be increased dramatically.

It seems to me there are two options here.

Option A: Full Communism - ("The game Pharaoh")

Abolish the idea of any monetary currency in Calradia, pretend they have never invented anything economically beyond Trade and Barter. Gold doesn't exist and no machines exist for minting. Instead the currency is food.

How this would work in game:

Fiefs could grow different foods and the fief owner could determine how much each farmer gets to keep for himself.  Fiefs could make food/ mine for resources/ breed horses. The government takes food taxed from farmers and uses it to purchase the resources/horses off the miners/etc. the government then takes these resources to the town, along with the taxed food. Fiefs would have a limit on total population, this stems from the fact that the more houses you have, the less space you have to farm, and the further away from the village you have to go to hunt/farm.

Towns would take the resources, pay the artisans in food, with more food going to better "Smiths", and base wages for the production line. Saddles could be made in towns and horses either devoted for caravans, or sent to castle to be trained for war. Trade caravans would originate and conduct business in towns as hubs of food, equipment, and raw resources.

Castles could receive leftover food from the towns or straight from the fiefs themselves in order to train troops and feed the armies/pay for generals. People could work in the castles as drill instructors or horse trainers. Castles could also be used to store food and keep it safe from raiders/enemy invasion. Castles would provide the lowest rate of consumption for garrisoned troops, due to occupying less land than a town, stricter rationing, and having no penalties to nearby fiefs for foraging. Wars would still require troops mustered from across the land to form armies of significant size however.

Any food leftover at this point could either be used to trade or maintain a "Strategic Reserve" in castles or towns (or even fiefs but they are not very protected and prone to raids) in case you suddenly lose a number of your fiefs in the opening assaults or surprise attacks. I say maintain because food will spoil over time, preventing hoarding of food and the increase the desire to trade it or convert it into troops, because a number of your troops will retire when they get too old.

In addition, larger armies in a single area would consume more food, as there would be less to forage. A small band of 10 men might simply be able to live off the wilderness, while armies of 1000's would depopulate the local fauna and hurt production in nearby fiefs. Armies garrisoned in castles/towns would consume less, but not fiefs for the previous reason. Fighting a defensive war would be very harmful and prone to greater attrition. But attacking armies would suffer  too due to food being expended to maintain supply lines  if the invading armies were coming from a great distance and such.

Pros:
Food Spoilage/Old Soldiers/Foraging provide great opportunity for tweaks  in order to balance gameplay.

Raider or bandit clans could raid fiefs and caravans while leaving castles and towns immune. Thus giving purpose to have your armies out on patrol or bribe bandits.


Cons:
Food doesn't translate into cRPG very well, a system for players to "eat" their food in exchange for cRPG gold could be put in place.

Mercenaries historically didn't fight for "food",  so players would receive the food planned for the troop salaries (so in essence troop tickets would only consume in the field and for initial training), and rather than be official "mercenaries" simply take the role of a faction's loyal soldiers. Players who both produced goods and fought in battles would naturally receive more food than those who just did one or the other, as a family could still work while the sons/husbands are off at war.

Option B:
Gold and machines for minting exist, commerce thrives as currency does not expire, caravans are faster and can carry more wealth/value than barter caravans. Laissez-faire and the free market forever.

How this would work in game:

Similar to the above, replace all instances of food with money. Except for a few differences, fiefs could produce precious metals which could be sent to the capital city for minting, this would detract from their ability to produce food/equipment. All fiefs would have this ability in order to have a single currency amongst all factions, but some fiefs might have this resource be more plentiful than others and produce more per worker.  The capital city would be responsible for making the currency and then distributing the coinage throughout the land to pay for everything.

Pros:
Money is money, and could easily be converted into crpg gold.

Food would still be important for war, but not for production. (Maybe this is a con to some?)

Cons:
Has a heavy emphasis on protecting your capital (maybe this is a pro?), losing your capital would shut down your empire for weeks.

Money doesn't spoil, hoarding would become prevalent especially amongst the merchant empires that won't war with anyone. Tweaking would be more difficult and I forsee more possible rollbacks or stagnation as the game goes on and some empires simply have enough gold stockpiled to have massive armies.

Inflation of the currency means the conversion factor to cRPG would have to be closely watched.

Raiders would be limited to cherry picking around the capital and trade routes between factions.


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« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 12:23:11 am by PhantomZero »
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Strat economics discussed after news from chadz.
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2011, 01:13:23 am »
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I think that merged or even complelty coupled currency systems between cRPG and Strategus will fail.

If one cRPG gold equals k Strat gold, we will have :

- people farming cRPG to get Strat gold.
- people with fiefs/member of big clans in Strat using their gold to upkeep more and buy more heirlooms.

And I think boths are bad things. People that only want to play cRPG should still be competitive in it.

So instead of a basic conversion, what about a different system :

Each tick in cRPG gives you a fixed amount of Strategus gold, with the multiplier applied. You cannot transfer gold between cRPG and Strat, but playing cRPG gives you Strat gold this way. I don't think people should be able to get cRPG advantages by doing things in Strategus at all. But now that I think of it, maybe giving a free and fixed masterwork equipment for holding a town. For example, the owner of Rivacheg would get a +3 Broad one handed axe, and loose it immediatly when he looses the town.

What do you think ?

Offline PhantomZero

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Re: Strat economics discussed after news from chadz.
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2011, 02:05:35 am »
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- people with fiefs/member of big clans in Strat using their gold to upkeep more

This was mentioned as a reason when switching to the upkeep system in the first place. Eventually strategus would come back and clans would be able to 24/7 hurf derf plated chargers every day if they wanted.
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Offline Gondemar

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Re: Strat economics discussed after news from chadz.
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2011, 02:16:07 am »
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I totally agree with Kafein or Phantom, keeping cRPG and Strategus' Gold appart seems the best thing to do to avoid leech in either, if transfering gold goes both ways.
And I don't know how this worked in the first Strategus, but having a good food system will probably be really interesting (attrition wars, supplying armies...).


And I assume the Smith part will be related to the "chadz text" ?
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Re: Strat economics discussed after news from chadz.
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2011, 03:03:39 am »
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Gnjus:
Claims will of course be made. Of course they are pointless from a game-perspective, but it goes into game theory.. If one clan claims a village, and promise war if taken by someone else, it's easier for the attacking clan to take the one next to it in an early-game scenario against AI villages.

About currency:
People traded in butter and used it as money not-that long ago. Something similar, abudant and generic would take it's place in strat. (basically the most useful item, probably food.)
A problem for cRPG if strat money (Even if gained from cRPG work initally) could pose a threat to game-balance. *if a clan had great success in strat* This is only OK if balancers truly balance out items, no matter the cost.

About wiping strat every 6 months.
I rather think this should go up for popular vote. At some point it will be clear who won strategus, be it after a month or 8 months. I think devs together with popular opinion should decide when it's time to start fresh. (Perhaps with a fog of war brand new hex-map that no-one knows what looks like completed. Then players would have to stick the pieces together themselves and scout. Scouting info could mean GOLD!) for those inclined.
 
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Offline CtrlAltDe1337

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Re: Strat economics discussed after news from chadz.
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2011, 05:38:03 am »
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IMO the whole gold crossover with cRPG/strategus has been a failure in the past and will be a failure in the future.  It just doesn't work well.  All it does is encourage people to grind on crpg for strat, making the most powerful clans the ones with the most members grinding.  All we need is a way to make money in strat.  No crossover of gold.
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Offline PhantomZero

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Re: Strat economics discussed after news from chadz.
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2011, 06:10:08 am »
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IMO the whole gold crossover with cRPG/strategus has been a failure in the past and will be a failure in the future.  It just doesn't work well.  All it does is encourage people to grind on crpg for strat, making the most powerful clans the ones with the most members grinding.  All we need is a way to make money in strat.  No crossover of gold.

Then there really isn't a point for clanless people to participate in strategus. No reason for people outside of a clan to work the fields/towns/whatever in this "new" strategus. I guess it would be for small clans to work the fields for larger ones? Hoping for one day a fief of their own?
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Offline Topsnus

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Re: Strat economics discussed after news from chadz.
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2011, 07:16:39 am »
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Then there really isn't a point for clanless people to participate in strategus. No reason for people outside of a clan to work the fields/towns/whatever in this "new" strategus. I guess it would be for small clans to work the fields for larger ones? Hoping for one day a fief of their own?

Think of it as a different game. If you want to participate in this game you either join a clan, make a small group (as bandits or something), or try your best to tough it alone (possibly by working for a larger clan or by making deals with people.) If you dont want to do any of that than you can just participate in the battles. It's stupid to design the game so that a bunch of people can simply sit in a town in order to make more cRPG gold, they may as well not be playing.

Offline DesertEagle

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Re: Strat economics discussed after news from chadz.
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2011, 01:01:44 pm »
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My suggestions so far:
1. Make each weapon ( weapon type maybe ) crafting tehnique learnable and/or researchable. This will create diversity of demand. For example - you need a Steel pike, but your smith can`t research it`s crafting technology. You heard that is one distant town live a smith you can craft it (and maybe he needs something, that he can`t produce , but what you can offer to him ). So you sent a caravan to him.

2. Make a fair, maybe once a month ( 2 months maybe ). Server will choose map, with selected town and players will spawn without weapons to walk near counters, watch goods, argue with merchants :) . Town that is holding a fair must make an advance payment for the organization of trade fairs. During a fair town will get some amount of money, from taxes,trades and so on. There maybe a fights on arena like in singleplayer.
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Offline Razor1

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Re: Strat economics discussed after news from chadz.
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2011, 01:18:02 pm »
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My suggestions so far:
1. Make each weapon ( weapon type maybe ) crafting tehnique learnable and/or researchable. This will create diversity of demand. For example - you need a Steel pike, but your smith can`t research it`s crafting technology. You heard that is one distant town live a smith you can craft it (and maybe he needs something, that he can`t produce , but what you can offer to him ). So you sent a caravan to him.

2. Make a fair, maybe once a month ( 2 months maybe ). Server will choose map, with selected town and players will spawn without weapons to walk near counters, watch goods, argue with merchants :) . Town that is holding a fair must make an advance payment for the organization of trade fairs. During a fair town will get some amount of money, from taxes,trades and so on. There maybe a fights on arena like in singleplayer.

I never played the old Strategus but this sounds interesting IMO.