Leave or stay in the EU?

[Butan]

Ahahahahahaha,

If I leave politics I cant be held accountable for what may or may not occur

He saved Britain, I think he deserves to rest a bit.
 

[Butan]

Which was quite simply put wrong. Almost all pro-leave arguments were nothing short of utterly retarded and straight up lying. Like being displeased about following EU regulations on certain goods. I dont see how leaving is gonna help. If you wanna trade with EU you gonna have to follow them anyway.

I have to honestly admit, Brexit was even dumber than Trump and im slowly thinking about communism. Its becoming more imminent that a democratic society with lacking proper education will eventually shoot itself in the foot for no apparent reason. There wasnt a single real reason to even discuss Brexit, let alone pass it.

What people fail to understand both in the exit and remain camp, is that yes, the EU is not a tyranny and even if they arent directly elected, they are indirectly. But at the same time, the rules that the EU imposes on their members are supra-nationals rules that should be (in a perfect world) done by people directly elected.

FFS, he's from a great country where you can directly vote your local sheriff or judge(what can possibly go wrong?) into office. If he shares his wisdom about democracy you punks gotta shut up and listen.

Like Paul pointed out, there is less arguments to vote for local/regional stuff. The most important elections, what you want to vote for, is the top of the pyramid, and they take care of the rest so to say. So since the EU is about adding a layer on top of our countries, it is a representative problem that our democratic process doesnt include the EU.

A solution would be to directly vote for a EU president, and the countries would be officially relegated to a a second position, but that would mean that our presidents would become governor-like in the apparatus (which they are already becoming about, debatedly) and that would piss off nationalists and political parties everywhere.


Its always the same with the EU: we cant go full federalism because nationalism, and we blame the system to be undemocratic and inefficient because they dont embrace true federalism. The circle of hatred continue...

[Butan]

It's not as if the public gets to vote 'democratically' on who is the Prime Minister here either, that is also indirect where you vote for the party or local candidate then the party puts their leader in charge if they win. So to claim that the system of 'indirect' election in the EU was a dealbreaker for the UK makes no sense.

The further away from the closest direct representation, the more indirect and out of touch from the people it feels and feeds fear.
So if your PM is indirectly elected, the part your country has in the EU is even more indirect.
So that still makes sense.

But yes some countries have different systems and different opinions on how a government need be done. I dont think the UK and France has the same opinion on the EU commissars for example, maybe the UK people is more tolerant of indirect representation so accept EU ruling more easily.

[Butan]

You know there is even chances that people who googled "what is eu" were remains or exit?

But yeah on that subject, if the UK likes indirect representation and voted out of EU, I wonder how referendums would go in direct representation EU countries 

[Butan]

I think there is lots of reasons for everything on how to regard the EU, and one of them is cultural customs regarding how democracy is done in each country. Thats about it.
Of course in the end, media propaganda is always going to have a big impact that can nullify reason.

[Tibes]

Of course in the end, media propaganda is always going to have a big impact that can nullify reason.

Each persons individual take on the worlds affairs can nullify reason. Your own, or mine, just the same. That's why we have well traveled, extremely knowledgeable multiple masters degrees owning professors who believe that the world is flat or that scientology is the real truth. You are given facts, how you process them is up to your own mind, which unfortunately we are not in control of as much as we think we are.

[Leshma]

People who voted leave are in a hard place themselves and believe their vote is going to fuck over those who are doing good in life. There was an article a week ago about fifty something unemployed, former worker in industry that died in UK, who voted leave because he wants to fuck over establishment who treat him like rug.

[Angantyr]

Brexit has been pretty farcical overall. Almost to US standards.

And I agree, Overdriven, I also liked David Cameron. It's a shame to see him go.

[Tibes]

Brexit has been pretty farcical overall. Almost to US standards.

And I agree, Overdriven, I also liked David Cameron. It's a shame to see him go.

Personally I see it even above US standards. Trumps popularity is somewhat understandable. Its regrettable and the stuff he says defies reason, but seeing how the US has a history for far right politics and it keeps going more right with each year, it was only a matter of time before a completely biased extremist right winged leader took over. Berxit even being worth a mention, let alone even getting passed is still barely understandable. "Take back control"? From fucking what? UK was always in control and in those things they werent they still arent after leaving. Ironically they are even less so now. Because EUs kinda the only primary tradingpartner they got. They still arent free from any regulations. Infact their ass might even get more of them, seeing as they arent a member anymore.

[Leesin]

Leave voters right now

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[Knute]

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[Oberyn]

It's amazing how dumb people like Heskey are. What exactly was it that convinced you that the sudden surge in google searches for "What is EU" post-referendum and the like came from Leave voters retroactively deciding to get informed about an issue they just voted on? Appart from your completely unwarranted sense of intellectual superiority? Easily manipulated cunt. Yeah I'm sure the sextegenerian grannies immediately got on their high tech cells, couldn't possibly be the gigantic proportion of young voters who abstained, who got woken up out of their political apathy by social networks and media going apeshit over an issue they were barely even aware existed. But this simple explanation is apparently beyond these fucking geniuses, Occam's Razor gets thrown out in favour of circlejerking about the inferiority of their political enemies, with yet another poorly cobbled together and easily swallowed myth. Literal fucking retards. 

[Kafein]

Once again you're comparing a super-nationally appointed commission to a democratically elected parliament.

I'm not?

it is a representative problem that our democratic process doesnt include the EU.

Except it does. National news never talk about the EU in a good or even neutral light, but that doesn't mean the elections don't exist.

It's amazing how dumb people like Heskey are. What exactly was it that convinced you that the sudden surge in google searches for "What is EU" post-referendum and the like came from Leave voters retroactively deciding to get informed about an issue they just voted on? Appart from your completely unwarranted sense of intellectual superiority? Easily manipulated cunt. Yeah I'm sure the sextegenerian grannies immediately got on their high tech cells, couldn't possibly be the gigantic proportion of young voters who abstained, who got woken up out of their political apathy by social networks and media going apeshit over an issue they were barely even aware existed. But this simple explanation is apparently beyond these fucking geniuses, Occam's Razor gets thrown out in favour of circlejerking about the inferiority of their political enemies, with yet another poorly cobbled together and easily swallowed myth. Literal fucking retards. 

I remember a time when your posts weren't 80% noise.

[Grytviken]

Which was quite simply put wrong. Almost all pro-leave arguments were nothing short of utterly retarded and straight up lying. Like being displeased about following EU regulations on certain goods. I dont see how leaving is gonna help. If you wanna trade with EU you gonna have to follow them anyway.

Is the EU some special place that only gets to make the rules? The US and EU have a mutual 3% tariff on trade and accounts for 1/3 of the world's trade flow. The EU is removing all those barriers for the US because they want more money.

 EU regulations and barriers don't seem to matter anymore when they have to trade with nations outside of their direct control single market. They'll do the same for the UK because they export way more into the UK then the other way around, those tariffs you have to pay are very low anyways and work both ways.

[Grytviken]

People who voted leave are in a hard place themselves and believe their vote is going to fuck over those who are doing good in life. There was an article a week ago about fifty something unemployed, former worker in industry that died in UK, who voted leave because he wants to fuck over establishment who treat him like rug.

I wonder how hard it is to get a country that is dependent on EU welfare subsidies to vote in Germany's favor when it comes to only needing a 51% majority to pass new regulations. It must be nice to have never ending supply of low paid slavs and refugees slaving away in factories for minimum wage to pay into their nation's tax system though.