Author Topic: No Germans Allowed  (Read 20059 times)

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Offline Sir_Hans

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Re: No Germans Allowed
« Reply #135 on: December 14, 2015, 07:47:07 pm »
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And these wrong hands will have better weapons than the cops, stuck with their little semi auto, low caliber pistols.

In california squad cars are equipped with assault rifles. Usually they have shotgun in the trunk as well.
In hawaii I don't think they do, but there aren't very many gun related murders here compared to california... Not very many places to run and hide when u on an island.
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The argument that taking away legal capacity for civilians to own a certain type of firearm prevents criminals from obtaining said firearm is fairly insubstantial imo.
Mexico it's basically illegal for any civilian to own a firearm, Yet look at what their cartel is armed with...
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Seeing how easily mexico smuggles drugs across the border, one can assume that if we made assault rifles illegal to own in the U.S. and even assuming that somehow we managed to remove ALL assault rifles out of civilians hands... Mexican cartels would just smuggle assault rifles back over the border a long with drugs if the price was high enough.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 07:52:39 pm by Sir_Hans »

Offline AntiBlitz

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Re: No Germans Allowed
« Reply #136 on: December 14, 2015, 07:59:05 pm »
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Offline mcdeath

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Offline Kafein

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Re: No Germans Allowed
« Reply #138 on: December 14, 2015, 08:22:14 pm »
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Seeing how easily mexico smuggles drugs across the border, one can assume that if we made assault rifles illegal to own in the U.S. and even assuming that somehow we managed to remove ALL assault rifles out of civilians hands... Mexican cartels would just smuggle assault rifles back over the border a long with drugs if the price was high enough.

I don't think you understand how the Mexico-USA border trafficking works.

Offline Lt_Anders

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Re: No Germans Allowed
« Reply #139 on: December 14, 2015, 08:42:25 pm »
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A 9mm bullet has less stopping power than a 7.62mm obviously. You may survive while being shot directly with one 9mm bullet, but the odds for survival go down with anything higher. That's why I'm saying that, it's REALLY obvious that if someone goes full retard with a pistol, and if another goes full retard with a shotgun or an AK47/M4, it may end up worse for the second case.

Plus you may forget that a 9mm bullet doesn't really penetrate heavily armored SWAT/policemen. An armor-piercing 7.62 may actually penetrate their heavy armors. If civilians have access to high caliber weapons, it's obvious they're going to end up in wrong hands, no matter what. And these wrong hands will have better weapons than the cops, stuck with their little semi auto, low caliber pistols.

FYI, the 7.62 has better power in part due to the fact that it has far more powder to propel it. A single .22 to the head can kill any human, as it has enough power and force to go right through the skull.

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Offline Algarn

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Re: No Germans Allowed
« Reply #140 on: December 14, 2015, 09:45:25 pm »
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FYI, the 7.62 has better power in part due to the fact that it has far more powder to propel it. A single .22 to the head can kill any human, as it has enough power and force to go right through the skull.

Yes, but it actually requires you to aim, and I don't think there are many automatic .22 guns that let you spray in the crowd out there (I may be wrong, but whatever). And then, try to pierce a kevlar vest with a .22, and try again with a 5.56, guess which one is gonna actually do the job. I'd not be so mad about the fact firearms are sold to civilians if the calibers remained small and actually required careful aiming to kill someone.

In california squad cars are equipped with assault rifles. Usually they have shotgun in the trunk as well.
In hawaii I don't think they do, but there aren't very many gun related murders here compared to california... Not very many places to run and hide when u on an island.
(click to show/hide)

The argument that taking away legal capacity for civilians to own a certain type of firearm prevents criminals from obtaining said firearm is fairly insubstantial imo.
Mexico it's basically illegal for any civilian to own a firearm, Yet look at what their cartel is armed with...
(click to show/hide)

Seeing how easily mexico smuggles drugs across the border, one can assume that if we made assault rifles illegal to own in the U.S. and even assuming that somehow we managed to remove ALL assault rifles out of civilians hands... Mexican cartels would just smuggle assault rifles back over the border a long with drugs if the price was high enough.

Because selling them directly to citizens doesn't make things easier for bandits and drug dealers to get a lot of them legally, right ?

Offline Xant

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Re: No Germans Allowed
« Reply #141 on: December 14, 2015, 09:54:39 pm »
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Even if it removes certain physical elements from the encounter you're also increasing the likelihood that the assailant is armed. That significantly improves the chance that average joe facing the assailant is going to die even if there's a better-than-average chance that he'll shoot first. It turns a shitty situation into a genuine life-or-death situation.
But you don't know what kind of a situation it will be if AJ has no gun.

Some AJ unarmed scenarios:
1) Just end up losing some valuables and insurance covers for them... ok, not too bad, certainly better than dying in attempt to defend the sanctity of your home.
2) Wife/daughter gets raped, everyone lives. Depends on your POV if this is a better outcome than "X chance of dying while shooting the would-be rapist." But you can adjust the probability in your favor with things like training and layered home security until it becomes acceptable.
3) Robber kills everyone in the house.
4) Robber kills someone in the house.
5) Some combination of rape/murder/torture/humiliation/kidnapping...

Now, 1) might be statistically more likely to happen than the rest put together, but I'd rather not leave the lives of my family and myself in the hands of a random person who's desperate enough to go invading homes -- or worse, not desperate, but invading for the thrill of raping/murdering.

Quote
And maybe i prefer the police being more armed than most threats to society. I dont want family-man defending his home, the local village rapist (favourite crpg meme 2015), the police, and the pasty nerd who got diddled by his uncle to all have equal firepower and pose an equal threat. Or the possibility of a miniature 'arms-race' as not all firearms are born equal.
Sure. My preferred option would be that you have be an upstanding member of society (former police, military, politician, Ph.D... i.e., something that takes more dedication than 99.99% of random shooters have), have no criminal record or mental illnesses, and have to go through an annual firearms training course (~20 hours) to keep your carry permit active. I'm also OK with US style "no limitations" carry, but I slightly prefer Europe's "no one can carry" policy.

Quote
1. You and your assailant both have guns
2. You have a gun and he doesnt
3. You dont have a gun, but he does.
4. Neither of you have a gun

Quote
Armed with a gun (G), armed with a knife (K), unarmed (U).

G=G>K>U
U=U<K<G

Game theory wise, having a gun is always superior to not having a gun.

Quote
In Scenario 1, even if you give yourself a better-than-odds chance of winning that encounter it still poses a high risk of death to you and anyone with you at that time if you're a normal human being.
Not necessarily a high risk of death. There is some risk, yes, but like I said before you can significantly skew the odds in your favor with training, forethought and certain security measures. If you know an assailant is coming, and you know from where, you're almost certainly going to come out on top.

Quote
Scenario 2, sweet, he can back the fuck away, stay where he is till the police show up, or die as a result of 'self defense' (c'mon, nobody will ever prove it wasnt).
That is, if he makes his motives clear to you before he's close enough to grab your arm. If not you are basically fucked if you lose the grappling match cos he'll know you were going to pull that gun on him and there goes any chance for mercy.
OK, so you're not just talking about home invasions? I thought you were since you used "Average Joe" in your example before, like I did when talking about home invasions. That's almost better, though -- because you have the option to not draw. That's why CONCEALED carry is smart and open carry is dumb. And again, if you have no gun and you can't beat the dude in hand-to-hand, then you leave your fate in his hands (and the fate of whoever's with you.)

Quote
Scenario 3, depends what they want since you're unarmed. What's more important to you, your wallet or your life? Genuine question, each can make up their own mind and take their chance, pride or life? Of course he may want to rape you and that'll change the way you balance that decision, or if the gods of chance hate you they may just be a serial killer. This one depends most on what they want and what you as the unarmed party choose to do. Whilst being the most at their mercy of all 4 scenarios, your actions have the most say in whether you die or not.
Most likely you'll just lose your valuables, yes, but again, leaving your fate in the hands of an unstable person whose motivations you have no idea about. And being armed doesn't mean you can't give up your valuables... only thing that changes is that you get the option to try to draw if it looks like you're going to eat a bullet after you hand over your wallet.

Quote
Scenario 4, do they have a knife? Will they genuinely try and kill you? Can they kill you? If you dont fancy your chances physically then it's the same as Scenario 3, except it'll be much more effort on their part to kill you.
They don't even have to want to kill you. An untrained person getting punched in the head and falling on asphalt is a dangerous combination.

Yes, but it actually requires you to aim, and I don't think there are many automatic .22 guns that let you spray in the crowd out there (I may be wrong, but whatever). And then, try to pierce a kevlar vest with a .22, and try again with a 5.56, guess which one is gonna actually do the job. I'd not be so mad about the fact firearms are sold to civilians if the calibers remained small and actually required careful aiming to kill someone.

Because selling them directly to citizens doesn't make things easier for bandits and drug dealers to get a lot of them legally, right ?
The whole "kevlar piercing" discussion is 100% pointless. Who cares if they can pierce body armor or not? Their victims don't wear body armor and if 100 cops can't handle some loon shooter they've got bigger problems than armor-piercing rounds.
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Offline Turkhammer

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Re: No Germans Allowed
« Reply #142 on: December 14, 2015, 10:11:12 pm »
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Yes, but it actually requires you to aim, and I don't think there are many automatic .22 guns that let you spray in the crowd out there (I may be wrong, but whatever). And then, try to pierce a kevlar vest with a .22, and try again with a 5.56, guess which one is gonna actually do the job. I'd not be so mad about the fact firearms are sold to civilians if the calibers remained small and actually required careful aiming to kill someone.
You still have to aim a semi automatic rifle like an AR 15 or even a fully automatic rifle like an AK.  Full auto is difficult to control.  The chief advantage of those weapons over hand guns is range, penetrating power and capacity.

I claim humongous bullshit on this specific statement :lol:

I think you're correct.  The territorial west was not a very polite society pre-statehood and proper law enforcement despite a lot of armed people.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 10:19:09 pm by Turkhammer »

Offline Algarn

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Re: No Germans Allowed
« Reply #143 on: December 14, 2015, 10:12:16 pm »
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The whole "kevlar piercing" discussion is 100% pointless. Who cares if they can pierce body armor or not? Their victims don't wear body armor and if 100 cops can't handle some loon shooter they've got bigger problems than armor-piercing rounds.

Cos... It's both dangerous for civilians AND cops/soldiers ? I'd rather give away my rights to own a (big) gun and to have more cops with better weapons, which make them able to kill terrorists/gangsters with less civilians casualties rather selling them openly like in USA and have daily disasters.

As you said, U<G, but if there are some guys around with bigger guns, armor, and superior training, it's more efficient than a lot of fat guys with pistols/carabines or whatever.

Offline Xant

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Re: No Germans Allowed
« Reply #144 on: December 14, 2015, 10:18:26 pm »
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Cos... It's both dangerous for civilians AND cops/soldiers ? I'd rather give away my rights to own a (big) gun and to have more cops with better weapons, which make them able to kill terrorists/gangsters with less civilians casualties rather selling them openly like in USA and have daily disasters.

As you said, U<G, but if there are some guys around with bigger guns, armor, and superior training, it's more efficient than a lot of fat guys with pistols/carabines or whatever.
Guns don't have power levels. Training>caliber/bullet/fire rate. There are no "better weapons." Real life isn't a RPG where you switch to a masterworked german greatsword at level 18 after you reach 15 str.

Bigger does not mean better.

And like in the Texas incident:
Quote
A traffic officer working after-hours as security for the event and armed only with a service pistol killed both men, who were wearing body armor and carrying assault rifles, Garland Police Department spokesman Joe Harn told reporters Monday.
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Offline Turkhammer

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Re: No Germans Allowed
« Reply #145 on: December 14, 2015, 10:22:18 pm »
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Cos... It's both dangerous for civilians AND cops/soldiers ? I'd rather give away my rights to own a (big) gun and to have more cops with better weapons, which make them able to kill terrorists/gangsters with less civilians casualties rather selling them openly like in USA and have daily disasters.

As you said, U<G, but if there are some guys around with bigger guns, armor, and superior training, it's more efficient than a lot of fat guys with pistols/carabines or whatever.

When you need a cop in seconds they are just minutes away.  Most often they arrive in time to draw chalk lines around the bodies and take pictures.

Offline mcdeath

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Re: No Germans Allowed
« Reply #146 on: December 14, 2015, 10:38:55 pm »
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Offline Lt_Anders

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Re: No Germans Allowed
« Reply #147 on: December 14, 2015, 11:28:47 pm »
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But you don't know what kind of a situation it will be if AJ has no gun.

Some AJ unarmed scenarios:
1) Just end up losing some valuables and insurance covers for them... ok, not too bad, certainly better than dying in attempt to defend the sanctity of your home.
2) Wife/daughter gets raped, everyone lives. Depends on your POV if this is a better outcome than "X chance of dying while shooting the would-be rapist." But you can adjust the probability in your favor with things like training and layered home security until it becomes acceptable.
3) Robber kills everyone in the house.
4) Robber kills someone in the house.
5) Some combination of rape/murder/torture/humiliation/kidnapping...

Now, 1) might be statistically more likely to happen than the rest put together, but I'd rather not leave the lives of my family and myself in the hands of a random person who's desperate enough to go invading homes -- or worse, not desperate, but invading for the thrill of raping/murdering.
Sure. My preferred option would be that you have be an upstanding member of society (former police, military, politician, Ph.D... i.e., something that takes more dedication than 99.99% of random shooters have), have no criminal record or mental illnesses, and have to go through an annual firearms training course (~20 hours) to keep your carry permit active. I'm also OK with US style "no limitations" carry, but I slightly prefer Europe's "no one can carry" policy.

Game theory wise, having a gun is always superior to not having a gun.
Not necessarily a high risk of death. There is some risk, yes, but like I said before you can significantly skew the odds in your favor with training, forethought and certain security measures. If you know an assailant is coming, and you know from where, you're almost certainly going to come out on top.
OK, so you're not just talking about home invasions? I thought you were since you used "Average Joe" in your example before, like I did when talking about home invasions. That's almost better, though -- because you have the option to not draw. That's why CONCEALED carry is smart and open carry is dumb. And again, if you have no gun and you can't beat the dude in hand-to-hand, then you leave your fate in his hands (and the fate of whoever's with you.)
Most likely you'll just lose your valuables, yes, but again, leaving your fate in the hands of an unstable person whose motivations you have no idea about. And being armed doesn't mean you can't give up your valuables... only thing that changes is that you get the option to try to draw if it looks like you're going to eat a bullet after you hand over your wallet.
They don't even have to want to kill you. An untrained person getting punched in the head and falling on asphalt is a dangerous combination.
The whole "kevlar piercing" discussion is 100% pointless. Who cares if they can pierce body armor or not? Their victims don't wear body armor and if 100 cops can't handle some loon shooter they've got bigger problems than armor-piercing rounds.

To further illustrate your points xant.
3.7 Million burglaries.(that's 10% of the US total population, which means that it's much more than that as very few people live 1 person per home)

1/3 of those, someone was home when their house was invaded of these, 25% had a violent crime take place. 62% of homeowners were unarmed and only 12% of perpetrators were armed with a gun.

Older stats, but(US only)...
*An estimated 3.7 million burglaries occurred each year on
average from 2003 to 2007.

*A household member was present in roughly 1 million burglaries
and became victims of violent crimes in 266,560 burglaries.

*Simple assault (15%) was the most common form of violence when
a resident was home and violence occurred. Robbery (7%) and
rape (3%) were less likely to occur when a household member was
present and violence occurred.

*Offenders were known to their victims in 65% of violent
burglaries; offenders were strangers in 28%.

*Overall, 61% of offenders were unarmed when violence occurred
during a burglary while a resident was present. About 12% of
all households violently burglarized while someone was home
faced an offender armed with a firearm.
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Offline Algarn

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Re: No Germans Allowed
« Reply #148 on: December 15, 2015, 12:09:24 am »
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A traffic officer working after-hours as security for the event and armed only with a service pistol killed both men, who were wearing body armor and carrying assault rifles, Garland Police Department spokesman Joe Harn told reporters Monday.

Firing a gun isn't rocket science, Xant. Anyone who spends a few hours with a weapon is able to operate it effectively enough to shoot in a crowd, no matter which gun we're talking about. And that case you mentionned, is... well, one single case. A case of a really lucky guy that had the odds against him. How many cases out there with police officers being killed against opponents (that aren't blind) with better weapons ? Police officers kill a lot of armed people (not speaking about all these recent shootings on unarmed black teenagers, obv), but they still get killed, and firearms have a role in these deaths.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty




Offline Xant

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Re: No Germans Allowed
« Reply #149 on: December 15, 2015, 12:30:44 am »
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You show how little you know. Combat shooting is extremely hard. Most people can't hit the side of a barn with a shotgun, from inside the barn, because of the mix of fear and adrenaline.

There are no "better weapons." A pistol is many times preferable to a rifle in a city. Especially in LE duties where you have to clear rooms.

Your rhetoric is extremely confused in any case; if anyone was able to operate any gun effectively "in a crowd," then guns would matter even less - just 360 noscope everyone in the head with an air gun. And "firearms have a role in these deaths", no shit, so what? How many of them are because "he had a level 76 assault rifle and I only had a level 12 pistol"?
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