France under attack....

[Oberyn]

I was just talking about Paris in a thread of Mano’s and how nice I found the people there. Terrorism shouldn’t have to be denounced, so I feel conflicted about making a gratuitous statement of denunciation, but I have so little to offer, knowing so few people in the area, and being out of contact with those I do know for so long.

Horrific as this is, my first reaction was “only 100? What a low number! I’m pretty sure the U.S. has had more deaths from mass shootings alone this year.” (And I was apparently right; The Gun Violence Archive says 288 right now, with a month and a half to go.) So, is it more appalling that I am desensitized to this degree, or that the U.S. is so filled with guns that major disasters in other countries would barely be noticeable here? I’m torn.

The only thing going through my mind at this is “Well so much for Europe accepting Syrian refugees now”. And the non-stop right wing bullshit about this being ALL MOOSLEEMS and shit and I just can’t anymore.

This is going to turn into a new rallying cry by racists for even more hard-right movement against any and all Islamic countries or people. Or those who look like it.

Which is exactly what the fuckers who orchestrated this while massacre want.

I’m just going to curl up somewhere, Watch Hercules Poirot on Netflix, and ignore the world for the rest of the year

The Republicans, naturally, are leaping on this as a chance to sell more guns, and advocate more horrific policies for forcing Syrians to continue living in terror of ISIS. (Who may not be responsible … )

Saw Brian Williams interview a woman who has been studying extremism in France. She made the point that the rightwing politicians have been pumping hate speech into an already volatile situation. The far right politicians now have about 25% of the population behind them.

New immigrants, and second generation immigrants, still do not feel like they are part of France. Those populations have been subjected to hate crimes.

The economy in Europe is not great. Young people have a hard time getting a job.

Lynna is not saying that murder is justified by economics and/or employment and/or past hate crimes against someone with whom you share the experience of being an immigrant.

Lynna is saying that we know empirically that when these factors come together that murder is more common. I believe that Lynna is asserting this in order to bolster a claim of recklessness by the rightwing politicians who engage in hate speech (i.e. “they should have know it was a tinder keg into which they tossed their fiery words).

i think when put baldly like that, Lynna would probably also like it clarified that such hate speech also does not justify murder.

I think what’s being articulated is that even if the murders are unjustifiable, the speech was hurtful, stupid, and unwise.

Having done all that to defend Lynna, I will say, however, that I’m with Ophelia Benson on the general principle that discussing bad speech in the aftermath of these attacks carries the appearance of victim blaming and may tend to shut down free speech. The principle has limits, of course, but maybe we could save analysis of stupid shit for a later thread

"Atheists". The brand for whom multiculturalism and "tolerance" is vastly more important than anything to do with their perceptions on religion.

[Oberyn]

Yet they don't know what 9/11, Patriot act, NSA, surveillance and violation of privacy have in common.

Muslims fanatics? No, of course, the true masterminds are, yet again, the evil western governments. Look at these totalitarian dystopias, trying to defend their people from bloodthirsty lunatics. Oh my god such opression, if only I could live in another country where such horrible violations of muh freedoms didn't exist. We have to literally change our laws to accomodate the reality of living with even a small minority of sunni muslims, but good job, point at the real culprits. It is unthinkable to cast any sort of collective guilt on muslims as a whole, despite all the evidence. 

[Oberyn]

https://twitter.com/Salondotcom/status/665566929407578112?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Parody Salon account, but no way of knowing these days. If Salon wrote an article along these lines I would be completely unphased. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

[Beauchamp]

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

in my country there were a few millions of people in communistic party in the 50's
executions and killings in the prisons or on the border were however made by a few communists only.
hundreds of people that died in the process thus did not die due to communist terror, it was the act of handfull radical maniac assholes.

LOL

[Son Of Odin]

Muslims fanatics? No, of course, the true masterminds are, yet again, the evil western governments. Look at these totalitarian dystopias, trying to defend their people from bloodthirsty lunatics. Oh my god such opression, if only I could live in another country where such horrible violations of muh freedoms didn't exist. We have to literally change our laws to accomodate the reality of living with even a small minority of sunni muslims, but good job, point at the real culprits. It is unthinkable to cast any sort of collective guilt on muslims as a whole, despite all the evidence.

What the fuck man? Where did I say that? I merely pointed out that the byproduct (fear) of this incident is being used as an advantage to push completely other agenda. Why is that even remotely acceptable in your opinion? That is like taking a big dumb on the graves of the victims.

Of course you do background checks on refugees and immigrants. That's common sense and that should be developed. Islamic countries have big problems but trying to solve them only by staring at Koran isn't going to do much. Neither does just going in there guns blazing and leaving immediately afterwards. How does it end there if you don't rebuild after you tear it down? ISIS needs to be roflstomped and annihilated like any other batshit crazy group. After that efforts to rebuild need to be taken in order to get basic human rights, higher education and stable economics going. Only after that is the crisis solved.

[Oberyn]

Yes, because it is our duty to build up islamic heartlands into stable, modern countries...because...I don't know, it's just our responsability. Just like it's somehow our responsability to accept the hundreds of thousands of people fleeing from these failed states that loathe our guts and everything our civilization represents. Fucking bomb those cunts into the technological level appropriate for their delusional theocracy and them leave the ashes to smolder. Fuck their people, fuck the "innocents", they are not my people and I give zero fucks about them. I have as much sympathy for them as they have for me. If they want to have basic humans rights, higher education, and stable economics they can fucking get to it. They are not entitled to our help. Clearly though the 99.97 percent of "peaceful, moderate" muslims are just opressed victims of the measly 0.03 percent that somehow militarily and culturaly dominate almost every muslim country and government on the planet.

[Christo]

Women Fashion 2016

[//saxon]

Oberyn chill dude, i don't think your keyboard can take this much longer  :mrgreen:  jk

[Butan]

Your spam is getting ridikulus Oberyn. We got your point quite a few pages back: muslims needs getting out, not getting in again ever, with the help of immigration laws, border controls, etc.


Lets say, that the problem is Islam. You stop people from believing in Islam, from entering your country. How do you deal with converts from inside your country? How do you deal with people with french papers, from embracing terrorism? You cannot.

If really, the problem was Islam itself, the only way to fight it, would be to ban the religion itself (or reform it completely, not going to touch on that). Practical problems aside, it would also create tension, crime, and terrorism. And if you ban a religion, why not the others? Even though Islam has the most problematic extremists today, every religion can be turned into a bomb to harm your fellow countrymen.


So lets say you ban all religions, and strictly control your immigration. What will stop one man, from one the corner of the world, if he is dedicated enough, to come and bomb the shit out of you? Only the security force of your nation can help you against him, and sometime they will fail, and people will die.

Until all religions are eradicated worldwide, you will see this shit happen again and again, you can slow it down, but you cant stop it altogether, even if you turned your country into a strict gated community, vastly decreasing the quality of life of 99.9% of innocent people.
Not to add that, religion is only one side of terrorism... People will resort to extreme acts when pushed to their limits, and where there is war (be it in the mind, or in your streets), there is people turning to terrorism.

[Oberyn]

Why the fuck are you talking about all religions? What other religion is responsable for this sort of thing? It's the second mass terrorist attack from muslim terrorists in a year, not counting the many that were stopped before they suceeded, who did you think I was worried about, fucking buddhists? Chinese confucians? Orthodox greeks? What other religion has tried consistently to hurt and kill and kidnap and attack as many french people as possible, for years? Can we stop pretending this issue is a "religion" issue and start realizing it's one, very specific religion? What fucking more do you need? Why are so many of you dumb fucking bundle of stickss dancing around the obvious issue?

[Leshma]

Other religions have been beaten to a pulp by communists and free minded people decades and centuries ago. This particular religion has risen from the ashes and took a very aggressive form, maybe even worse than it has ever been (talking about Islam through centuries) and worse than any other religion has been through time. They embraced kamikaze and guerrilla ways of fighting, which makes them hard to fight against. You can ban modern Islam but I have to agree with Butan's opinion, chances you'll succeeded in "defeating" it just by banning the Islamic religion are slim. You need to go to the root of the problem aka why this particular religion has came back and took such terrible shape. Fairly certain most people at this point understand who is behind this, but there is no action against those people.

When Milosevic was labeled as the devil one country has been strategically bombed for few months. He stepped down. Dealing with Saddam took a bloody war vs Iraq. He was put on a trial, convicted and hanged. Gaddafi was brutally murdered during Islamic uprising. Why it is so hard to bring those Islamic princes and sheikhs to face the justice?

Edit: Question for you. Do you think that people would convert to this very religion 70-80 years ago? I highly doubt that. Most converts are preaching peace as the reason but I'm fairly sure they find Islam interesting because it projects terror and might all over the world. They think it is "strongest" religion today and that is why they side with it.

[Falka]

I don't get it why so many ppl find it repulsive to be against immigration. Not talking about hating myslims or aby other group of ppl (including my countrymen ;) ), but simple statemant; we're gonna be better without you lot, so no, you can not get in. Is that really that bad?

[Butan]

Why are so many of you dumb fucking bundle of stickss dancing around the obvious issue?

I see a little man getting really angery at real people's arguments.


We ban Islam tomorrow, what then? The rest of what I said doesnt change whether its one or all religions... My post was as comprehensive as possible, to have everyone participate, possibly including the most agressive posters here, but you're still getting pissed off.

Get some rest dude.

[Oberyn]

It's part and parcel of the eradication of the native identity. "Human" is all that should matter, after all. They are people like you and me. Just ignore all context and pretend you're living in a Dysney movie in which the good guys triumph through patience and understanding and tolerance and love and friendship and the bad guys ultimately get their commeupance, and the sentiment makes sense. You just need to be a completely delusional cunt, it's easy.

[Beauchamp]

You need to go to the root of the problem aka why this particular religion has came back and took such terrible shape.

retarded people = retarded religion