That is a huge change, isn't it?
Yeah, but when I was looking at damage when I was using HT, the damage wasn't all that great because of the 20% reduction. Only speed bonus can make up for that, but then you have less accuracy.
Is there any change planned for Great lance (ab)users? Cav vs cav fights it has no counter. Yes, a Heavy Lance can outreach it, but as the damage is too low to kill the enemy horse even with full speed bonus, the result is your horse dead and the enemy nooblancer running away with full HP. It's also a guaranteed onehitter against pretty much any build and armor unless you get negative speed bonus. It has way too much killing power compared to the requirements and skill needed to use it and you often see average players topping the scoreboard with it. Lancing in general is a bit too strong as well which has lead to the death of 1H/2H cavalry.
Weren't EU players saying 1h/2h cav were the strongest? Not much has really changed with cav in recent times, so to me it just seems like a simple metagame shift. Great lance is easy to use, but it's not OP, since the stabbing lances generally have a more rewarding skill ceiling. I think it only needs a difficulty increase and/or made 3 slots so you can't abuse it with a super high riding build with no commitment. If you get couched by a great lance, it should deal considerable damage, so that part seems fine to me.
Also is it possible to rethink the soak and reduce values so low damage hits would actually glance and not do 0.1% damage. For example a throwing knife will do nothing but scratch plate armor but will interrupt the attack and slow down movement. It's unrealistic, stupid and totally unnecessary.
Unfortunately, the way damage works, if you make glancing easier, then you increase high end damage scaling. That means speed bonus, holds, etc. deal more damage. In other words, you make it even more like the current pierce stat.
For more info, I made a post about this a few months ago about my thoughs:
The reduction of randomness from damage overturned the original reason for the change to the soak/reduce numbers for cut, pierce, and blunt. Even so, I believe the ideology for increasing reduce was a step in the right direction and should continue further.
soak cut = 0.65;
soak pierce = 0.5;
soak blunt = 0.4;
Soak is the initial slope for raw damage vs. armor. 0 soak means that the damage before factoring in reduce is the same at all armor levels. Increasing soak decreases damage and vice-versa at all armor levels above 0.
reduction cut = 1.6;
reduction pierce = 1.1;
reduction blunt = 1.3;
Reduction is more complicated. The best way for me to describe it is stability that decreases the extremities of damage. Low reduction is volatile while high reduction is steady.
High reduction: High raw damage deals less against high armor. Low raw damage deals more against high armor.
Low reduction: High raw damage deals more against high armor. Low raw damage glances against high armor.
In the most practical terms, the lower the reduction, the larger the effect of armor, sweet spots, speed bonus, holds, high damage weapons, and high power strike/draw/throw.
Current situation:
Cut: I think it's okay but slightly underwhelming. The current balancing trends have been boosting the stats on cut weapons to offset the weakness of the type.
Pierce: The combination of low soak and reduction makes pierce quite the pain when you get to high damage. This makes high pierce weapons stronger than they should be.
Blunt: Because of the slightly higher reduction and lower soak, it just feels like a watered down pierce. It performs ever so slightly better at mid 20s damage and gets better later on.
Suggestions should these ever be changed:
Cut:
Cut has 2 options:
#1-Increase soak and decrease reduce so cut is awesome against light to medium armor and terrible against plate. Recommended- soak: 0.65 -> 0.9 , reduce: 1.6->0.75
Pros: Cut properly follows its intended purpose. Strength builds benefit from the high damage cut instead of agi builds.
Cons: Very low cut and Very high cut weapons need to be buffed/nerfed. The low cut weapons will glance too much and the high cut weapons will blast through everything better than pierce/blunt with good enough damage.
#2-Slightly decrease soak and slightly increase reduce so damage is slightly better up to mid-tier armor. Recommended- soak: 0.65-> 0.55, reduce: 1.6 -> 1.75
Pros: Cut is overall a bit better until you reach heavy armor.
Cons: Low damage cut can stun plate. This may affect sweetspots/hiltslashes. The type would still rely more heavily on its increased stats over pierce/blunt.
#1 might be more fun in practice due to its reliance on skill-based mechanics despite its instability while #2 can be balanced more easily even though it defies realism a bit and negates glances even more.
Pierce:
Pierce needs an increase in reduce and then a decrease in soak to make up for the damage difference, just like #2 for cut. Recommended- soak: 0.5->0.3, reduce: 1.1->1.45, making it similar to the current blunt.
Pros: Low damage pierce is more stable. High speed bonus/high pierce damage is reduced by a few points of damage while still remaining good/better than the other types.
Cons: Better early/late stabs. (debatable). Less effectiveness form PS, etc.
Blunt:
The same as the previous two but at a more dedicated level with large decreases/increases. Recommended- soak: 0.4->0.05, reduce: 1.3->1.8
Pros: Damage is quite stable at all levels. Very forgiving with low damage. This is the best way to have blunt be worse against low armor and still remain good against high armor.
Cons: Less damage potential unless you raise the damage for high blunt weapons. Less effectiveness from PS, etc.
After thinking about it some more, these might just be a bandaid to account for speed bonus that may arguably need to be reduced. I think a viable alternative is to reduce speed bonus to 1 and lower reduce instead, thus stabilizing speed bonus (nerfed from 2->1 yet buffed, too, because of the reduce change) and increasing the effectiveness of decent PS. Cut ranged may need to be tweaked.
Because these are such large changes, I simply consider this food for thought when thinking about the current values that we have.
Edit: Changed values
armor_soak_factor_against_cut = 0.55
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce = 0.3
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt = 0.05
armor_reduction_factor_against_cut = 1.75
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce = 1.45
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt = 1.8
Stop the ability to change weapons while nudging which causes half the attack animation to disappear. Highly abusable crap that most hoplites use when they switch to 1H weapon.
Don't know how to do that. You can switch weapons right in the middle of your own attack, which is just as viable. A good hoplite is going to find a way to switch on you because of the way the game works.
Stop daggers being used with shields. It just feels wrong to see these guys topping the scoreboard with such a troll build and it happens quite often. The speed of the 1H dagger stab is just too much for some of us to handle even when we see it coming.
I agree, but this thought isn't unanimous as far as I know. I think there were talks of reducing speed when a 1h dagger + shield was being used, but nothing really came out of it and it sounds like too much work for me to do it.
I'd say the main problem is how strong shields are, it's very easy to get an invincible or near-invincible shield. When spam is the main playstyle in laggy servers, it was inevitable that lots of people would take up the auto-block device that will literally never break unless maybe you get lots and lots of strong hits with a +3 GLB or something.
*disclaimer to specify against people who will decide to misinterpret what i say, i'm saying the shield itself is too physically strong/durable, not that shielders are too strong. That shit needs to break eventually, core M&B mechanics and balance rely on the fact that shields break if you just hold the RMB.
Shields break quite easily, especially against an axe, a category where all 3 melee classes have potent options. Shields are powerful in the first confrontation against a non-bonus vs. shield weapon, but even strong shields eventually whittle down after multiple fights. You can probably block around 20 hits or so with the more commonly used shields. The more defensive shields are slow (Though much more viable right now) and attacks have a chance to sneak through a block. Not many people decide to get high shield skill for a reason. You need 15 shield skill for an invincible shield.
