cRPG and economy, a petition to end the communistic injustice

[Cheap_Shot]

A possible solution to this problem, WITHOUT wrecking gameplay would be to reward more money to  the winning teams at the end of a round (instead of rewarding indivirual players as BaldRider suggested). Something like maintaining the normal gold ticks as we have now, and giving a SUSTANTIAL gold gaining for winning rounds (and increasing this bonus more if rounds are won in a row).

You know, this is just an idea. It needs some tweaking and testing, but i think that if we follow this line, we'll get what we want (reward gameplay, encourage players to wear medium/heavy armor to win rounds in order to win money).

In addition to that , if we want to reward single characters that outstand in a team, we could reward some  players for "specific achievements" at the end of a round (p.e. reward the players capturing the flag on siege), but that bonuses should be slightly less than the team bonus, and just optional.

I actually like these ideas. I can't see how a bonus to the winning team would be a bad idea, since it would motivate people to work together and win instead of leeching, wearing poor gear to make money, etc.

Mini bonus's to players that preform well would be kinda cool too. Nothing like (x number of kills get you more money) or (top of the scoreboard) because that would just end up being the vet players getting richer in their amazing gear. A lot of builds are support classes which are needed, and rewarding for most kills would just make those support styles rarer. More like mini achivements, like "opened the gate for your team" which can only be earned by one person in a round on the attacker side for seige. Maybe "first to the flag" or "first kill" or other things that would get people moving.

 I like the idea of a bonus for killing someone who does heavy damage to a teammate before they are killed for a teamwork bonus. A huge problem I see while playing is players leaving their teammates to die instead of helping them or working together to take the attackers down. Ways to reward teamwork are very needed in cRPG. Currently no one is motivated by anything other then "get the most kills and stroke that e-peen" which limits the gameplay possible with this mod.

[22nd_King_Plazek]

I approve taking the C out of Communism-RPG!


edit:
And Tears of Destiny you are wrong.
The way gold is handed out is communism, I have been semi joking/complaining about it for months. This is meant to be a Character RPG. Who you are is meant to matter, there should be some individual achievement instead of this "everybody gets the same" nonsense.

Of course some people fear this will cause a lack of teamwork. But only amongst idiots. If the team does well the individual player will also be doing well. However there can also be both team and individual rewards. For example using the current system we have now but introducing a modifier that rewards individual abilities on top of it.


Team Modifier:

x5

Player Modifier:

x(5+(X)

Where X = If K > D then  +Q
                  If DAM > Y then +W
                   If SUS DAM < U then +E

K-kills
D-deaths
DAM- damage dealt
SUS DAM- damage sustained
QWEUX - simple variables

Or something along these lines.

---

Of course as is the chadzian way you could keep whatever modifiers secret so people do not know for sure which they are then maybe it will affect people gameplay style less and teamwork will continue unabated by individual rewards. Though really I think trying to force teamwork instead of allowing individual rewards was wrong from the outset, what with it being an RPG and all

[rustyspoon]

I approve taking the C out of Communism-RPG!

Ommunism-RPG?

[Lichen]

A possible solution to this problem, WITHOUT wrecking gameplay would be to reward more money to  the winning teams at the end of a round (instead of rewarding indivirual players as BaldRider suggested). Something like maintaining the normal gold ticks as we have now, and giving a SUSTANTIAL gold gaining for winning rounds (and increasing this bonus more if rounds are won in a row).

You know, this is just an idea. It needs some tweaking and testing, but i think that if we follow this line, we'll get what we want (reward gameplay, encourage players to wear medium/heavy armor to win rounds in order to win money).

In addition to that , if we want to reward single characters that outstand in a team, we could reward some  players for "specific achievements" at the end of a round (p.e. reward the players capturing the flag on siege), but that bonuses should be slightly less than the team bonus, and just optional.

+1 I completely agree with the winning team getting a gold bonus at the end of the round. And if possible to reward individual players for capture assist or similar TEAM effort then definitely.

Also I think there should be a TK gold penalty to punish those consistent idiots who don't care about anything but their kills. Also (crazy idea) maybe introduce betting so you can bet on yourself (or team) to win the round and you can enter how much you want to bet (similar to how the tournaments worked in single player).

[zagibu]

Additional to the base income, it should be possible to gain extra money by performing well as an individual. We all know that humans are very egocentric and can't really be motivated by a multiplier that is dependent on team performance. We need personal incentives.

One possibility would be rewarding damage done in relation to the player's level. I don't know how feasible it is, but if the damage can be recorded, it should be possible to calculate averages for each level, and if players surpass that, they should be able to earn additional gold (say in linear scale to the amount it surpasses the damage average, up to a certain limit).

It is possible that this would increase the number of tks, though. We don't know for sure until we try it.

[Sultan Eren]

You tottally misunderstood communism.

You call this communism because everyone earns gold equally. But if it's gonna be communism then everyone's items should be the same. Then you can call it communism and that is the "injustice" that you whining about. If there's injustice then it's not communism i am sure.

You obivously don't know a shit about "value thory". You a ignorrant I'm sorry. Keep blaming communism until they suck all your blood. 

[Digglez]

OP entire premise and though process is wrong.  He who has the most cav/tanks on his team is likely going to win.  There is a very big incentive to wear heavy armor, YOU SURVIVE long enough to help your team win.  I would wager a very large chunk of my money that if you broke down 100 matches, the side with the most heavy armor wins 75%+ of the time.

Perhaps the multi needs to be exponential or something better like

1x
2x
5x
15x

[EponiCo]

Plazek, you have a point that the individual players will do better in the winning team or working together, where you are wrong is that the skill or worth of a player is measured in kills or damage done.
The system doesn't force teamplay on anyone (teamplayer gets the same as lone wolf), the thing is your suggestion would be unfair between "killer" gamestyle and "supportive" gamestyle. In this game you can benefit the team as much by averting damage, creating distractions, etc.
F.e. if I have 8 roofcamping archers shooting at my shield (and throw stuff at them when they get bored) while a crossbowman picks them off one by one, I have significant responsibility for his success, and also for the success of teammates who could have been shot while fighting. But I do no damage (well, except for the 2 throwing axes I hit), let alone kills when I die to the arrow in the side. I'm not claiming this takes skill (RMB ftw), but it's tactics, and those can be employed for the team (take as much responsibility as you can handle, f.e. with a shield you can take a lot of ranged fire), or against it to boost your k:d (run or hide from every fight where you don't have easy win odds and let your teammates die outnumbered). Ofc it's all situational, cav f.e. can benefit the team a lot with this tactic, and in the end there is no formula if you want to have it fair (*).
So, the thing is, regardless how you code it, you'd have a "flawed" formula, which can be exploited all the same. Leechers gonna leech, simple as that.


(*) And it's exactly like that in real life. Noone is really paid by how much his profession provides or how skillfull he is, but by supply-demand and how powerful he is (skill and usefullness figure in, but just count all the useless broken shit that people are making money with). If we had capitalist RPG, shielders would go on "strike" and only shoot crossbows until 2h sign a payraise for them. If we had such a formula though, communism would work perfectly.

[Blondin]

+1 EponiCo

Possible Xp/Gold formulas are only able to calculate and measure epeen, not the utility that you can have on a battlefield.

[22nd_King_Plazek]

Of course, there is no doubt in that Eponi. But IMO rather a poor approximation than no individual accomplishment at all. It is not like the current system rewards distraction or  other support methods any further than the team bonus.

Oh and anyone who thinks the OP or anyone really writing in this thread is making serious claims about communism as a political or economic theory is a fool. 
The similarities are obviously just a side issue to the real problems and a bit of light hearted commenting.

[Casimir]

RThe player who plays well and is the more helpful to his team will surely find himself on a higher multiplier more often than the leecher in a shirt?

Hmmmm.

[Tristan]

If the game was able to count assists then we could be talking.

A long time ago I suggested a renown system, where instead of kills, you counted renown.

Each time you hit a foe, you gained renown equal to a percentage of his renown value. This value would be calculated on a basis of his lvl, generation, k/d and value of equipment worn.

A player who hit a target for 20% life would then achieve 20% of his enemies renown points.

Upon dying yourself you lose renown points equal to your own renown value.

Combining this with the "communistic" payout would give a pretty solid picture of effectiveness on your team.

Programming it however.....

An important side note:

I know from experience in team battles, that when I play shielder support character, my value is not killing people. It is kiting enough enemies to split them up so the rest of my team can kill them. How would you reward this? I make no assists, no kills, yet has a huge effect on who is going to win!

[Elmetiacos]

"Let us leave this abusable socialistic system where the people who work hard go around in gothic plate slashing people in the back with flamberges are rewarded less than the ones who abuse the system to earn easy gold."

[Diavolo]

I like the idea of a bonus for killing dangerous opponents. Perhaps give a 100gold bonus for killing characters over level 25. Low level characters would get less hunted down, they would not earn much less than the high level guys and people would go for the big bad guys first. I think it would be both fun and give people a reason to put on expensive gear (to be able to kill the baddies).

[Thomek]

The only fair measurements of a players team (and hence only) value can be seen only with time, and his personal statistics of Team wins&losses.

This information could be interpreted and give him a multiplicator to his gold gain.

Let`s say a player start with a 1.00x multiplicator when he creates a new character.

After 100 rounds his stats looks like this:  40 team losses - 60 team wins.

His multiplicator would then be positive, let`s say 1.5 (The exact factor must be decided by the trolling devs.. Perhaps it should be rather high, or even progressive. 40-60 would mean you push the stats quite a lot and are extremely important for your teams. This could be a 2x reward if you ask me. Some players could be come superheroes, always in heavy armor and expensive equipment. The whole team would benefit from building their tactic around them. Of course the other team could also have them on their side.  )

The multiplicator could of course always be negative, which means your team mostly looses, and you cannot afford as much gear.
It should be reset when you choose to retire, or at special intervals, to get a fresh start and a new goal. (If it was never reset, the curve would flatten and players would loose incentive to change it.

Investing playstyle and money in Team wins would make economical sense. If you choose to do it by using your skills to play Conan, to be a clever archer, to play hoplite with your friends, or trying to command your team, that`s up to you.

If you don`t really care, you can also play as you want, but then you should not expect to make as much money as the team players.