Arrows Complaint Wine thread

[San]

Yeah.

Basically, more damage and less weight, more ammo and less weight, or more ammo and damage (more damage than the first in this list) with around the same weight.

[Blackbow]

i dont ask more damage i ask you to put back the armor penetration stat like it was

like this we dont do to much damage to light armors and we dont need 40 arrows to kill an horse or a plated guy

we are forced to wear light armors but we are like the slowest class of the mod

so to me put back armor penetration
put quiver to 7 or 8 max
give us back our amount of arrows
remove this system of "pd now give accuracy", dont tell me it always been like this coz it was not !!!it appear with this famous bug/wrong code
keep damage nerf on bows and arrows

I still see just as many archers as ever, and they are still annoying. I didnt feel they needed a big nerf like this but i have dreamt for a long time of ammo nerfs.

just imagine you as archer

you need to have lot of str to deal damage and be accurate around 27 or 30 str
you also have to carry 20 kg for 2 quiver who give you 20 arrows in total if not loomed (1 arrow = 1 kg lel )
so you have low ath and move like a turtle but all other class are full agi ...
think also there is still those shit ghost arrows or the cav lag who let arrows pass through so you gonna waste tons of arrows but you aim well

that mean even ranged can hardly kill other ranged at long range coz not enough arrows, you gonna try 2 or 3 shoot then miss and change target
when this enemie archer is raping your team on his roof or broken tower like it happen for me today

so to be clear we cant kill cavs , we cant rly kill other ranged (only if close or middle range) what we gonna shoot now ?
yeah we just gonna focus more on infantrie...

before patch and after, problem still not fixed and inf will still cry
and also there is nothing anymore to counter cavs ...
so every map the team who get all cavs just have to fight half a team coz their enemies get spawnkill ...

also why u dont increase bolts weight ?
how many times i shoot an xbower then he run away with his 8/9/10 ath to reload then he disapear...
same for throwers

why xbowers and thrower can still kite and be fast as fuck ???
try to kill an agi thrower i bet you die in 2 sec

[Jeade]

so to me put back armor penetration
put quiver to 7 or 8 max
give us back our amount of arrows
remove this system of "pd now give accuracy", dont tell me it always been like this coz it was not !!!it appear with this famous bug/wrong code
keep damage nerf on bows and arrows

I'd say limit weight on quivers to 8 max, and not increase it to 10 with heirlooming.
If anything, lower the weight with heirlooming, maybe from 8 to 7.
An additional 4 arrows would probably be fine for most archers.
I don't like the "PD = accuracy" system either.
Tydeus had mentioned possibly increasing bow damage by +1 or something.

Maybe by slightly increasing Bodkin damage and arrow count, the issue could be somewhat solved, too.
Damage on light armored players is about the same/lower than what it used to be.
Damage on heavily armored players means you'll be using an entire quiver before denting the armor.

[San]

so to me put back armor penetration
put quiver to 7 or 8 max
give us back our amount of arrows
remove this system of "pd now give accuracy", dont tell me it always been like this coz it was not !!!it appear with this famous bug/wrong code
keep damage nerf on bows and arrows

-Armor penetration is pretty much a 25%-30% increase in final damage on average and doesn't change low PD vs plate at all.
-Put quiver to 7 or 8 = weight? I think the game can handle this just fine
-How much ammo is gotten back depends on the other changes, especially weight
-PD has always increased accuracy, or at least likely since the beginning times of cRPG. How else would high PD builds be accurate with low wpf?
-Contradicts the armor penetration statement.

just imagine you as archer

you need to have lot of str to deal damage and be accurate around 27 or 30 str
you also have to carry 20 kg for 2 quiver who give you 20 arrows in total if not loomed (1 arrow = 1 kg lel )
so you have low ath and move like a turtle but all other class are full agi ...
think also there is still those shit ghost arrows or the cav lag who let arrows pass through so you gonna waste tons of arrows but you aim well

that mean even ranged can hardly kill other ranged at long range coz not enough arrows, you gonna try 2 or 3 shoot then miss and change target
when this enemie archer is raping your team on his roof or broken tower like it happen for me today

so to be clear we cant kill cavs , we cant rly kill other ranged (only if close or middle range) what we gonna shoot now ?
yeah we just gonna focus more on infantrie...

before patch and after, problem still not fixed and inf will still cry
and also there is nothing anymore to counter cavs ...
so every map the team who get all cavs just have to fight half a team coz their enemies get spawnkill ...

also why u dont increase bolts weight ?
how many times i shoot an xbower then he run away with his 8/9/10 ath to reload then he disapear...
same for throwers

why xbowers and thrower can still kite and be fast as fuck ???
try to kill an agi thrower i bet you die in 2 sec

-Bodkins at +0 is quite low. How many arrows is comfortable per round at minimum?
-Part of some horses' bellies can't get hit by ranged.
-Heavy cav's durability was decreased, so it should be around the same as it was before against them.
-The argument of ranged vs ranged isn't convincing. Both are somewhat slow and accuracy is better.
-Steel bolt weight was increased, ammo was decreased, and they don't get much from high levels except for better hybridization. Throwing damage and speed were decreased and 4 stacks of most of the best throwing weapons are ~12-16 weight.

[Jeade]

-PD has always increased accuracy, or at least likely since the beginning times of cRPG. How else would high PD builds be accurate with low wpf?

-Bodkins at +0 is quite low. How many arrows is comfortable per round at minimum?

The big reason I never cared for the Rus or Longbow was because of the reduced hold time, which made them less accurate.
When the reticle was totally rested, they were both about the same as the Horn Bow, but the Horn Bow had nearly a second of hold time.

Anything in the upper 20's is almost always fine, assuming you're taking careful shots.
28 is probably the lowest I'd consider going. Anything above the high 30's (unless it's a HA) is unnecessary.

[Templar_Steevee]

-Bodkins at +0 is quite low. How many arrows is comfortable per round at minimum?
IMO 13 per quiver on +0 would be ok, but give +1 on every hireloom level, so on +3 going to be 16 - probably some hybrids will appear.

For me if i'll have 32 arrows for round to shoot it will be ok and it's still 8 less than before a patch, but at least i'll be able to kill one more extra pony (if i'll land all shots properly ^^)

[Gravoth_iii]

just imagine you as archer

you need to have lot of str to deal damage and be accurate around 27 or 30 str
you also have to carry 20 kg for 2 quiver who give you 20 arrows in total if not loomed (1 arrow = 1 kg lel )
so you have low ath and move like a turtle but all other class are full agi ...
think also there is still those shit ghost arrows or the cav lag who let arrows pass through so you gonna waste tons of arrows but you aim well

that mean even ranged can hardly kill other ranged at long range coz not enough arrows, you gonna try 2 or 3 shoot then miss and change target
when this enemie archer is raping your team on his roof or broken tower like it happen for me today

so to be clear we cant kill cavs , we cant rly kill other ranged (only if close or middle range) what we gonna shoot now ?
yeah we just gonna focus more on infantrie...

before patch and after, problem still not fixed and inf will still cry
and also there is nothing anymore to counter cavs ...
so every map the team who get all cavs just have to fight half a team coz their enemies get spawnkill ...

also why u dont increase bolts weight ?
how many times i shoot an xbower then he run away with his 8/9/10 ath to reload then he disapear...
same for throwers

why xbowers and thrower can still kite and be fast as fuck ???
try to kill an agi thrower i bet you die in 2 sec

I dont play archer often but when i make archer builds i keep melee in mind, with generally higher levels this is easier. I would probably do a 21-21/18-24 build, shoot them arrows up and then continue my day doing some melee fighting. Any ranged damage would be almost free damage in my eyes, just take down horses or whatever and get some easy points. Cav is easy to hit, atleast from my experience. I would never join as an archer to take down infantry easily, more to support infantry and focus on taking down horses.

[Blackbow]

-Armor penetration is pretty much a 25%-30% increase in final damage on average and doesn't change low PD vs plate at all.
it got decreased few patch ago to nerf ha, before that we was fine against plated not op but fine, does 6 pd is low pd for you ? to me it's high
-Put quiver to 7 or 8 = weight? I think the game can handle this just fine
maybe the game yeah but try to survive at one 2h agiwhore charging you , you will maybe have time to shoot 2 arrows, probably miss one and then you are dead coz you have no night to shoot an other one and was to heavy to get the small distance from him who could allow to shoot an other arrow.
maybe the game can handle this but not archers with 2 quivers.
-How much ammo is gotten back depends on the other changes, especially weight
just stop fucing everything give us back our ammount of arrows like it was...
-PD has always increased accuracy, or at least likely since the beginning times of cRPG. How else would high PD builds be accurate with low wpf?
yeah maybe but it was not significant compare to wpf, now having 9 or 10 pd is a fucking requierement
i have 8pd 140 wpf and i'm still not accurate as a 10 pd 120 wpf
why pd is giving so much accuracy now ? it's retarded and make wpf totaly useless
and god damit try to survive as archer with 20 kg and 4 ath i give you 2 sec and you will do 2 meter from spawn


-Contradicts the armor penetration statement.


-Bodkins at +0 is quite low. How many arrows is comfortable per round at minimum?
-Part of some horses' bellies can't get hit by ranged.
-Heavy cav's durability was decreased, so it should be around the same as it was before against them.
-The argument of ranged vs ranged isn't convincing. Both are somewhat slow and accuracy is better.
-Steel bolt weight was increased, ammo was decreased, and they don't get much from high levels except for better hybridization. Throwing damage and speed were decreased and 4 stacks of most of the best throwing weapons are ~12-16 weight.

[San]

"Game can handle this just fine" = I think it's looking safe to decrease weight imo. Wasn't disagreeing there.

[Azuma]

The problem is :

You (Not only you San) are making patches without testing, i mean more than 2min... the archer class. You are concentrated on archers BY THE WAY of melee point of view.
We dont need to talk 50yo about dat, you'll never really "understand" what we mean, so you just have to make an archer, level up it to lvl 35.

(STF NOT ALLOWED !!!)...

We shot ~35/60 arrows per rounds with a 1 slot bow and still alive at the end of da round, if god wants it (in battle, cuz on siege dats horrible now with 14 arrows in defense...sure)

The weight... I'm personnaly wearing a fucking Blue Tunic of 0.4, no helmet, Turkish Shoes (0kg) still less faster than a full str plate, and im not exagerating. Because im an archer and i have an IronBow of 4kg, a Langes Messer (2h) of 2kg, and of course quivers Made In Caldaria... 10kg each of dem..

18/27... lvl 37.

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T.R.Y  P.L.Z

[Keshian]

San I really prefer the idea of reduced accuracy but equivalent damage and here are the reasons why:

Thank you San for the well -thought out post.  Reading an intelligent discussion rather than some guy's "gut feel" for archery based mostly on a day of trying different bows is such a welcome relief and promotes an actual intelligent discussion on the accurate situation we are placed in.

I would like to propose two different possibilities.

First,  make the lower tier bows near same damage with high-tier but with MUCH worse accuracy - basically the strings are not as strong and so the arrows don't fly as true.  Long range shots would just be a waste of ammo usually unless shooting into a crowd.  The reason why do it this way is that 1) varying the damage too much among the various bows creates  a lot more possibilities for broken min-max builds and imbalances and 2) shoot speed has a lot of secondary side-effects that wreck the usability of bows or create unforeseen side-effects (decreased damage, massively increased drop in arrows so arc effects, lobbing over shield walls etc.) (also why when last time shoot speed was heavily nerfed it was reverted back rather quickly and many of the low -tier bows were actually given increased shoot speed later to actually make them viable). 

The effect of this would be for low tier bows a lot of close to mid range shots using strong intuition of opponents' movements and a primary purpose of crowd control (shooting into massed up groups), whereas the higher tier bows would do slightly more damage, mostly due to higher powerdraw and serve their role as long range firing but with 2 slots being limited in either ammo or melee weapon, requiring a stronger focus on dedicated archer build.  (Think of longbow as a strong wood and sinew weapon that shoots the arrows straighter and more true to aim).  But the higher accuracy also comes with slower draw speed (and i would also consider changing weights of bows to make the biggest bows closer to flamberge weight further reducing kiting - you are serving as an accurate long-range high-damage weapon with limited mobility requiring stronger team support.  Kiting by low tier bow users would also be significantly reduced because the low accuracy makes single unit targetting much harder making a single  melee chaser have a much easier time dodging their arrows and therefore forcing melee combat.  Mid-tier bows would possibly be a balance between the two but with enough lower accuracy compared to longbow, rus bow, bow (the 3 two slot bows) to not become the OP weapons of choice for archers, but rather a selective class weapon like for the few remaining ha who don't need quite as much accuracy but need the slightly higher damage.


The second possibility is this.   Make lowest tier bows extremely heavy but also have the highest accuracy rankings (not as realistic as 1st possibility).  They would be the go to item for high agility archers still with the highest accuracy with these bows providing a good use of wpf allowing the headshots needed for extra damage, but between the weight of ammo and the bow their hyper mobility will be significantly reduced.  The high strength archers would still use the higher tier bows to make good use of their powerdraw (since would have wasted PD points with the lowest tier bows), but with the lower accuracy it would be more a high damage crowd damager as no amount of wpf would be able to counter the significantly reduced accuracy.

I prefer the 1st possibility.  But whichever way you go you need to realize roles are very important especially when it comes to how they play out on strategus.  Xbowers are the selective snipers.  Archers need at least some part of their class serve their main purpose - crowd control.  Can't emphasize this enough.  Archers main purpose is crowd control in the end as massed shield walls and masssed charges they damage and kill and break up formations, forcing greater dispersal or else guaranteeing countless hits by massed archers.  Secondary role is strong anti-ranged counter which is where having some bows with good accuracy kicks in.  Playing on battle server is only about 1/3rd of the equation when trying to understand archery's role in game - archery is an incredibly weak class in general that gains (and should gain) most of its strength in coordinated group play, ala strategus and banner stacks.

I just wanted to say, thank you san for asking questions of the community and actually listening and giving well-thought out posts.  Makes those of us in the community who still care about the game want to reply in kind.  You are a good item balancer (I wish very much you were the head one).

[San]

I'll get around to it, a lot to read on just my phone

[Azuma]

I'll get around to it, a lot to read on just my phone

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[Little Lord Lollipop]

How about we get rid of the increased break chance for arrows!

[HappyPhantom]

With 21-24 and 24-21 builds as a standard and ~28% more damage than before compared to melee's 16%, how much should ammo increase?
Assuming 2 stacks standard:
Arrows: 42
Barbed: 36
Tatar: 30
Bodkin: 26

In a standard round ~3 minutes of fighting at 180 seconds, You can consistently shoot every 4-7 seconds depending on what ammo you use. Also consider the fact that you can loot arrows on the ground and full quivers instantly next to any dead archer. With this in mind, how much ammo per round do you think an archer should have? Even though all bows received -3 damage, that's the equivalent of +2 accuracy for all bows as well.

Edit: I'll ask about increasing the ammo count by a few more and see how that works out.

From my very unscientific and sporadic playing of archery since patch: current MW levels of ammo seems fine (read, I don't usually run out). It's the un-loomed quantities that I run out of.

How about we get rid of the increased break chance for arrows!

Yes. x2 stacks equals many repairs. There has been some discussion of reducing archery cost - I think in Jeade's Game Balance discussion. This would be equally helpful in reducing upkeep eh.