Dear balancers.

[Jack1]

Buffing ranged(back to native mechanics minus the super fast draw speeds), making all quivers/bows/crossbows 2 slots with more ammo(and more weight to keep kiting from happening)and making any zero slot weapon(back to hammer, hatchet and that pick) shitty as hell or just giving them unblock able weapons would be the way to go if you want to seriously fix ranged so that it can't 1v1 a melee character.

[Algarn]

Don't get me wrong Sandy, I am all for archers choosing meleeing over kiting any day. But the fact that they can have a variety of good melee weapons that enhance their ability to use ranged (by allowing them to have more ammo) is kind of counter productive. Blockstun is an issue for all 1handers, and the 0 slot weapons aren't really much lighter. The knobbed mace is 1.7, for instance. The broad short sword is 1.3, which is a pretty good weight for a shorter 1hander. Also, any strength archer won't suffer from blockstun as much since they might very well have more strength than the opponent they are facing in this day and age.

Funny thing is that as a strength based archer you deal more damage with your sword than your bow. No lies. And what use is your "OMG FUCKING OP SWORD" against a guy of same level, but with four more times your wpf and 20 more armor on every part of the body ?

Seriously, just try it before saying anything, just try 27/15 with a short sword and 40 wpf only (I mean, don't put PD/archery), and try to do as  good as a guy with 7 PS and 170 wpf in any melee profiency.

[San]

Buffing ranged? Can you go into more detail when you say "native mechanics"? You mean give stagger back? I like the slot changes, but it seems extreme. What do any archers feel about increased slots, but more ammo?

@Jona

I don't think your strength counteracts the chance to get weapon stun. I think it's primarily based on the person doing the stunning and the defender's weapon weight. Siding with Algarn on the disadvantage an archer with melee has.

[Jona]

I don't think your strength counteracts the chance to get weapon stun. I think it's primarily based on the person doing the stunning and the defender's weapon weight.

Hmm... I could have sworn that the only way to "defend" against stun was to a) bring a heavier weapon or b) stack more strength. Maybe your strength changed the odds of an opponent successfully getting crushthrough, and I go that mixed up with stun?

Siding with Algarn on the disadvantage an archer with melee has.

Good. I really don't even see the point to this argument because if archers had the same melee capability as any pure melee build, everyone would be an archer. What exactly is the point of saying "I decided to choose using ranged weaponry at the cost of some melee effectiveness, but I'm not good enough in melee so please buff?"

[Jack1]

Buffing ranged? Can you go into more detail when you say "native mechanics"?

give them more accuracy without being pin point/ being able to hold a drawn long/rus bow for more than .1 seconds.

You mean give stagger back?

hell no

 I like the slot changes, but it seems extreme. What do any archers feel about increased slots, but more ammo?

the idea behind this is to force ranged players to use 0 slots and to make those 0 slots the original 0 slots. Maker arrows go from 1 slot to 2 slots and ammo to ammo x 2. You get the same thing but you cant evade using the crappier weapons that are specific for ranged(hammer, hatchet, pick). Also you would need to increase the weight of arrows to about 11 so that there isn't kiting. Many ranged have melee hybrid stats and are kiting in NA 1 with 7 weight already. I wouldn't doubt they would change their builds to kiting builds ASAP if it stays at 7 weight.


Sorry for the crappy writing I'm on my phone with autocorrect./b]

Edit: I know that a vanguard guy, a DRZ guy and zlotz each were kiting me yesterday when I was on abbud Amati with 6 ath a huscarl, war hammer, and mail tier gear. Zlotz was slowly outrunning me once he got into the sprint mode but the other two were Jamaican compared to me.

[San]

Hmm... I could have sworn that the only way to "defend" against stun was to a) bring a heavier weapon or b) stack more strength. Maybe your strength changed the odds of an opponent successfully getting crushthrough, and I go that mixed up with stun?

That might be, I just haven't seen the strength part fully confirmed anywhere, it's just what we all believe. I used to get stunned all the time on my 24 strength guy, and I have no problems stunning with my 15 strength guy if I have a heavy weapon.

Good. I really don't even see the point to this argument because if archers had the same melee capability as any pure melee build, everyone would be an archer. What exactly is the point of saying "I decided to choose using ranged weaponry at the cost of some melee effectiveness, but I'm not good enough in melee so please buff?"

0 slot weapons did indeed do little to get archers to not kite and fight in melee. I don't think removing 0 slot weapons would help much either. The only "solution" if you can call it that is to tone down the ranged aspects.


@Jack1

give them more accuracy without being pin point/ being able to hold a drawn long/rus bow for more than .1 seconds.

I was told that hold time is tied to accuracy, but I am not sure what the devs initially changed to archery in the back end.

hell no

Haha, I was about to say.

the idea behind this is to force ranged players to use 0 slots and to make those 0 slots the original 0 slots. Maker arrows go from 1 slot to 2 slots and ammo to ammo x 2. You get the same thing but you cant evade using the crappier weapons that are specific for ranged(hammer, hatchet, pick). Also you would need to increase the weight of arrows to about 11 so that there isn't kiting. Many ranged have melee hybrid stats and are kiting in NA 1 with 7 weight already. I wouldn't doubt they would change their builds to kiting builds ASAP if it stays at 7 weight.

This idea sounds nice to me, but that may be my melee bias talking. I don't think the ammo needs to be increased that much, but yeah, the weight would need to increase. I think that trying to balance for some archers that bring 3 stacks and another archer that brings 1 stack + 2 slot weapon is a little much, too.

[Algarn]

Well Jack1, just do it, and regret it. Just think about the fact archers that are already wearing light stuff and having 9 athl will still kite with 11kilos of arrows on their back.

Also, if it has to happen, I simply hope you know you're going to screw every 2h archer + archers that use a 1 slot 1h (2 slots from bow + 2 other slots for ammo leaves no free slot) + archers that loomed a short sword (if you want it back to 1 slot, or to nerf the shit out of it to make it completely uneffective), and it will end up, as you said, archers taking weapons to block, and will keep running even more.

Thing is, I almost see no one on EU1 with a rus bow, and really, I see 1 archer on 50 with a long bow. They simply stick to the low PD bows, which give advantages when PD bonus is maxed out (i.e : nomad bow and 6 PD, with either bodkins or tatars). And it's all those guys that use low tier bows that got most potential when it comes to run.

[Jack1]

Well Jack1, just do it, and regret it. Just think about the fact archers that are already wearing light stuff and having 9 athl will still kite with 11kilos of arrows on their back.

if you get outran by somebody with an archer like that you deserve to be kited. no ranged character should be able to outrun a person with 6 athletic in armor around the grounds of studded leather over mail.

Also, if it has to happen, I simply hope you know you're going to screw every 2h archer + archers that use a 1 slot 1h (2 slots from bow + 2 other slots for ammo leaves no free slot) + archers that loomed a short sword (if you want it back to 1 slot, or to nerf the shit out of it to make it completely uneffective), and it will end up, as you said, archers taking weapons to block, and will keep running even more.

all of the 2h 1 slot weapons are already far too effective to be in the hands of a ranged character.

I don't get what you mean in the bolded part.

Thing is, I almost see no one on EU1 with a rus bow, and really, I see 1 archer on 50 with a long bow. They simply stick to the low PD bows, which give advantages when PD bonus is maxed out (i.e : nomad bow and 6 PD, with either bodkins or tatars). And it's all those guys that use low tier bows that got most potential when it comes to run.

keep in mind that you are a ranged player. ranged players using a 6 PD bow will have the disadvantage in a 1v1 vs any other bow. anyways, when you think of a good archer that is not a HA who do you think of? bagge/stevee on EU or Agile/kelden/itchy/zlotz on NA. they ALL use 6 pd bows. the only person that I can think of that can score high on the boards consistently without a 6 PD bow is flying dildos and he still gets half his kills with his 2 slot 2h sidearm.

[San]

I made a thread for a band-aid treatment for ranged + HA. A bunch of my own threads are still in vote limbo, so it's probably going to take a while unless the other voters get in gear whenever the next patch comes up, if they agree with it, of course.


I'm not convinced about the complaints of cav. In fact, horses should have damage received to their legs at half armor instead of 0 armor, mostly to combat those teamhits that nearly oneshot the horse. Requires a WSE2 update, however.

[jtobiasm]

bagge/stevee on EU or Agile/kelden/itchy/zlotz on NA. they ALL use 6 pd bows.

The only archer i know on there who is good (Never seen the NA guys play and stevee sucks imo) is bagge and i know for a fact when he uses a bow less than 6PD he can headshot people all day long.

Also watch druzhina nebun with his horn bow the guy can pull headshots off all day too.

The bows are perfectly balanced, if you want to kill other ranged take less than 6 PD.

[Algarn]

The bolded part means an archer will drop his bow mostly, start blocking the melee opponent, will try to gain enough speed to run out of the fight and take his bow later.


And Shokoshugi is always doing well with a horn bow imo.

[Sandersson Jankins]

Don't get me wrong Sandy, I am all for archers choosing meleeing over kiting any day. But the fact that they can have a variety of good melee weapons that enhance their ability to use ranged (by allowing them to have more ammo) is kind of counter productive. Blockstun is an issue for all 1handers, and the 0 slot weapons aren't really much lighter. The knobbed mace is 1.7, for instance. The broad short sword is 1.3, which is a pretty good weight for a shorter 1hander. Also, any strength archer won't suffer from blockstun as much since they might very well have more strength than the opponent they are facing in this day and age.

I can see your point, there are weapons that are 0slot ranking on par or even a bit higher than some 1slot counterparts. Hell, when I was a 30-15 swashbuckler I used a 0slot weapon just because I loved the damn old thing. But keep in mind that the block-nudge is extremely potent and reducing the selection of sidearms for ranged characters may mean that they'll simply pull their dinky hammer when they are in trouble, nudge the bad guys away, and high-tail it the fuck out to shoot some more. I wouldn't dig that so much.

Speaking of which, it does not seem like strength affects weaponstun at all, only weight and perhaps PS of the foe attempting to stun you. At least at 30-15 I'd still get weaponstunned like a bitch using the short nordic war sword, but almost as much using a +3 warhammer, the weightiest 1h I think.

[AwesomeHail]

Fighting against 2 HA's in eu 1 with 40 ppl in the server

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[Thomek]

Balancers should kill off HA.

[sjarken]

Mostly try to spam or nudge-hit archers when i get close.
So frustrating when they switch to mele and nudge u 20m away, then shots you down or they repeat until you are dead.