Author Topic: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)  (Read 4631 times)

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Offline San

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2014, 07:45:20 am »
0
Interesting point. IF isn't so great when you're wearing under 40 body armor. Strength archers really only have 1 skill going for them, PD, vs. Athletics and Weapon Master. Increasing HP is only going to let you survive 1 extra hit > X% of the time, and I don't think many people like the idea of reducing lethality any more than its current state with all this loomed armor. It's only useful for those who receive under 10-15 damage on average. Base HP from strength and the weakness of IF makes 50-65 health perfectly manageable.

I'm still thinking about it, but I'm starting to believe that IF governing stun resistance against ranged isn't so bad (credit to Johammeth). I believe this next part is WSE, but I also think that short+long ranged stagger % as a function of IF and damage dealt is also an idea to play around. Stun resistance against melee is unintuitive because of the nature of close combat exchanges. Winning a melee exchange only to have the other resist the stun is a more unfair punishment than from a projectile far away. This helps strength archers against agi archers and strength melee against agi-balanced archers at short range. Strength archers, throwers, and crossbows shouldn't have much problem outside of tincans.

There are still a few large cons to this that prevent me from fully liking the idea, although I do see some merit that it could work.

Offline Templar_Steevee

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2014, 10:49:05 am »
+2
Stun (from ranged) related to dmg dealed to target ant it's IF is a nice idea.
But isn't easier to make a formula for stun chance related to target's STR combined with IF and dmg recived and maybe total hp?

If you will take a IF an STR as modifiers you can do something like that:

Stun rezistance chance= [Hp-(Hp-dmg/Hp)]+[(STR+IF*1.5)/100] 

Where first square brackets is dmg recived and next one is modifier you have from combo of your str and if. Keeping that in 0.XX will be easy to use in othet things if needed, easy to change into %.

1.5 number is a number showing how much IF is worth looking for stun possibility

Only thing you will need to set are levels of stun you can set in table or in easy if... then formula :)

Sorry, i'm not a programmer, but i think this idea could be nice.

I'm not even a item ballancing advise club, but maybe you will have a look at my idea ;)
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Offline Umbra

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2014, 11:56:17 am »
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Thats... actually a good idea. IF reducing stun duration/stagger of arrows/bolts/throwing weapons.
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Offline Templar_Steevee

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2014, 12:28:50 pm »
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Thats... actually a good idea. IF reducing stun duration/stagger of arrows/bolts/throwing weapons.
it also could be funny if full plate full str guys (Butan etc) will be almost unstunnable  :twisted:

buff like this for str bulids could be nice :)
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Offline Algarn

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2014, 03:21:04 pm »
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it also could be funny if full plate full str guys (Butan etc) will be almost unstunnable  :twisted:

buff like this for str bulids could be nice :)

Butan isn't even playing crpg anymore, guess why ...

Offline Templar_Steevee

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2014, 03:29:10 pm »
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str unplayable??? ;P

That's why at least would like to se melee str got buffed
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Offline Algarn

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2014, 03:44:21 pm »
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str unplayable??? ;P

That's why at least would like to se melee str got buffed

Butan was 36/3 (or 39/3). His character was almost level 36 when the wpf rework destroyed his playstyle. He went from 90 wpf or something around to 20.

Offline Tydeus

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2014, 04:59:54 pm »
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The less hits you require to kill someone, the harder it is for you to get any effect from increasing your damage.
Similarly, the less hits you take to die, the harder it is to get any surviving hit gains from STR/IF.
While thats absolutely true, it's not a good idea to just leave things at that and say "once you're able to 2 shot, until you can 1 shot, any damage increase is pointless." There are just too many other factors that come up in a real scenario that this doesn't speak to such as: distance, positive or negative speed bonuses, armor values, variable hp amounts, multiple damage sources (both before and after getting shot.) We have already established that ranged get the lowest damage:kills ratio(meaning that the hits it takes to kill, are almost irrelevant since most people will be dying to another's hand) on average. Still, I'm not trying to say this isn't important, I think about this fairly often, but mostly from the other direction.

As your example shows, at lower damage values, the more hits it takes to kill someone for each point in damage lost. Bringing armor into the equation should make it easy to see how balance at low PD values such as 3, 4 or 5 (if using a lower damage bow), can have serious drawbacks.

I could definitely get behind the IF thing if 1) 18 had the same effect as what we have now, 2) it affected all stun/staggers(not just from ranged) by reducing the duration by something like 10~ms per IF and 3) I thought there was any hope to ever having a wse update that would make this possible.
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Offline San

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2014, 05:16:33 pm »
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The way I would like to have it handled just isn't possible.

Offline BlindGuy

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2014, 07:51:39 pm »
-1
Why is this thread still active. Heres the lowdown:

Anything Tydeus touches turns to shit, any change you make will kill even more of the population, pop dropoff and tydeus at the helm are not unrelated. Just fuck off.
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Offline Algarn

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2014, 08:52:09 pm »
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Why is this thread still active. Heres the lowdown:

Anything Tydeus touches turns to shit, any change you make will kill even more of the population, pop dropoff and tydeus at the helm are not unrelated. Just fuck off.

Tydeus had the idea to make a wpf spread, but this was one of the best ideas, so, it makes your whole sentence wrong. Also, you're going too far by using personnal insults against someone who put his time, without any kind of remuneration, to try improving the mod and adding features. Althought I disagree with his way to balance the game, I consider it's enough to deserve some respect.

Offline MURDERTRON

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2014, 07:05:55 am »
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Tydeus had the idea to make a wpf spread, but this was one of the best ideas, so, it makes your whole sentence wrong. Also, you're going too far by using personnal insults against someone who put his time, without any kind of remuneration, to try improving the mod and adding features. Althought I disagree with his way to balance the game, I consider it's enough to deserve some respect.

The WPF spread should probably be soft capped because there are certain high level builds (agi builds) that are doing entire too much damage.  I bet even San will admit it.
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Offline BlindGuy

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2014, 03:31:05 pm »
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Tydeus had the idea to make a wpf spread, but this was one of the best ideas, so, it makes your whole sentence wrong. Also, you're going too far by using personnal insults against someone who put his time, without any kind of remuneration, to try improving the mod and adding features. Althought I disagree with his way to balance the game, I consider it's enough to deserve some respect.

I would respect him if he was man enough to look at what he has done, see that none of it is anything but bad, admit he fucked up, set everything back, and walk away.
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Offline San

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2014, 10:43:19 pm »
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My stance on the wpf curve is the same as back then, I think it needs another tweak. At that time, I was getting used to my first agi build and finally started to see what a pure build was like. I think the wpf difference was underrated and it's worth looking at again, even if it only gives +- 6 wpf to most builds. I would really like to have new players start with a decent amount of wpf. Damage is iffy because speed bonus is pretty BS no matter what you do. I think hybrids should be better than what they are currently and feel that shared wpf is a trap.

If I think of the changes that heavily affected classes since around last spring:

-Randomization reduction
-1h stab and right swing animation buff, polearm left swing and overhead buff
-Nudges
-wpf change
-Rolling (forget when this was put in)
-shield buff
(I joined balance some time after this)
-Ranged extra penetration removal
-Ranged stagger removal
-Knockdown formula change
-Stab chamber time increase
-Stab stun modifier made the same for all weapons
-Another 1h right swing change
-Sweetspot tightening and +1 speed to almost all <=95 speed weapons
-Horse difficulty changes
-Ranged wpf exponentials removed, PD penalty lowered, accuracies increased

Then many miscellaneous item stat tweaks. I never cared for stabs, but I think that they settled to a better place after the ups and downs since the first change. Swing buffs were good although I always hear how polearm overheads are off/too fast, but they were pretty bad/easily spammed in the past.

Offline Algarn

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2014, 12:58:47 am »
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Tydeus asked for a proof of my reasonning long time ago when I came about the point saying AGI>STR, so I will give him the thing he wanted to see, as I got some time to kill.

I compare builds on the same level, and with the same number of invested points in PD/WM, whatever.

Level 30, for 18/24 and 24/18

18/24
(click to show/hide)

24/18
(click to show/hide)


Level 34, 21/24 and 24/21

21/24
(click to show/hide)

24/21
(click to show/hide)

Level 35 30/18 and 18/30 (Already did the comparison in the OP, simply taking the screens I already made.)

30/18
(click to show/hide)

18/30
(click to show/hide)

These are purely dedicated builds, I know. You have both to get to higher levels to make them somewhat viable and put wpf in melee, but still, It pretty much shows the same : taking agi over str gives more advantages than taking str rather than agi. (2 to 5 damages and a better trajectory aren't worth a loss of speed, and all the stuff I said before). If you don't want to balance this out, then, give free partial respecs to archers that got agi equal or less agi than 18. Thanks.


« Last Edit: September 14, 2014, 11:19:49 am by Algarn »