ADD A FUCKING RANGED CAP ALREADY

[Tydeus]

Can we expand on this a bit please?

Disincentivising ranged without touching their effectiveness? Effectiveness for whom though and in what situations? I think you can adjust some stats without making them much less effective for the genuinely good players. They will adjust while the random ranged may have an incentive to play another class because they can't reach the skill level needed. That will reduce the amount of ranged without them necessarily being less effective in the right hands.

We still have...

Missile speed. Good players will judge for the distance better, good melee will dodge the shot
Ammo. Good players will choose their shots wisely, there will be less projectile spam in the hopes that you or a team mate hit a target
Weight. Good players will think about their positioning more and the bad players get forced into melee

People still have a good incentive to go ranged in order to kill melee (or any other class). If melee has more effective armour ranged will simply have to switch who they target. Ranged shouldn't really have pierce damage, but you can adjust armour soak again (if that was what you did). A problem is that medium armour is used by ranged as well (especially xbowers)..there isn't really enough difference between melee and ranged in melee range

There are probably more things that could be done just by adjusting weapon stats so that people don't just play ranged because they are bad, and the good ranged are still rewarded

Aye. I've said in the past, I think projectile speed could be reduced slightly(1-2 points) for the 1s bows. The problem though, is that this is a fairly minor thing, and if you already have a build and items, it's going to take more than this to convince you to switch to something else. We have talked about ammo and particularly weight, significantly; I don't think the votes are there to get these changed.

The concept "Increase heavy/plate armor effectiveness vs ranged weapons, but not light/medium" sounds good, and in fact it's something we've attempted. Unfortunately, armor isn't actually broken up in tiers, and simply doesn't function like this at all. Any change to plate/heavy armor, will also affect light/medium, and any change to soak/reduce values, will also affect melee. Now, this solution isn't off the table, but it needs to be considered with great caution and care.

[Joseph Porta]

Archery needs to get an overhaul that fixes brainless kiting and pew pew-ing for days. As I mentioned earlier on in this thread the emphasize needs to be on the act of drawing the bow and taking aim. It is the most arcadey element in Warband, compared to other classes, even Go-Cart-Cavalry.

For n example Throwing is a whole different case, throwers need to tak into account the relatively low missile speed and the weapon path that is a result of this. Whereas archery is just pewewew, fire at the (x) equals win.

Archers can draw their bow AND move, now this is the most rediculous fantasy gambreaking shit ever, imo only PD 4< Bows should be able to do this.before an archers should even begin to think of drawing his bow he should be far from the melee, but this is allowed because of the epic rapid firing this game has. Lower draw speed, please.

As most people unanymously would agree with me the best way to make archery less of an arcade pewpew is to lower missile speed, imo on all bows. I do NOT think damage of archery is OP, thus the damage should be boosted to make up for the weapon speed. The problem with archers isnt the damage, but the way they are allowed to play.

This will result in a higher skill ceiling aswell, I suspect.  (Aiming becomes more difficult and you need to afjust your bow position more extremely)


Btw, i have unloomed light kuyak + heavy gaunts and I can take 4 arrows,  4 arrows! That is ALOT of arrows.

It is safe to say that damage isnt the problem here, its the freedom archers have to play like they do, and being able to carelessly spam arrows around for 4 min( average round time) without having to worry about going empty before its almost over already.

Alot of edits, sorry guys.

[Grumbs]

Btw, i have unloomed light kuyak + heavy gaunts and I can take 4 arrows,  4 arrows! That is ALOT of arrows.

It is safe to say that damage isnt the problem here, its the freedom archers have to play like they do, and being able to carelessly spam arrows around for 4 min( average round time) without having to worry about going empty before its almost over already.

Light kuyak and heavy gauntlets both at +3 is a decent amount of armour. You can wear that gear and still do ranged

If melee hits showed up on your character you wouldn't mention about 4 arrows . Plus you can block melee hits indefinitely. You can't really stop a random projectile hitting you, and any hit in the head either kills or puts you 1 hit from death

BTW xbowers with shields and decent armour have too much protection and versatility both from ranged and melee

We should really have more of a clear line between melee and ranged. Play ranged and you have very weak protection against ranged and melee. Play melee and you have better protection from both

[Joseph Porta]

Light kuyak and heavy gauntlets both at +3 is a decent amount of armour. You can wear that gear and still do ranged

If melee hits showed up on your character you wouldn't mention about 4 arrows . Plus you can block melee hits indefinitely. You can't really stop a random projectile hitting you, and any hit in the head either kills or puts you 1 hit from death

BTW xbowers with shields and decent armour have too much protection and versatility both from ranged and melee

We should really have more of a clear line between melee and ranged. Play ranged and you have very weak protection against ranged and melee. Play melee and you have better protection from both

In EU 1 every archer is wearing more armor then me.. I'm not even kidding. :S

Remember back in the day we lobbied for archers to get melee abilities? so they could "engage in melee"?
Well El-OH-EL, this didnt happen, it only caused archers to be even harder to kill after they kited you for as long as they possibly can..

imo this buff just made archery even worse to deal with, archers dont even counter archers because they have 40+ body armor in some cases! Not even counting the additional hand armor.

[Herezy92]

In EU 1 every archer is wearing more armor then me.. I'm not even kidding. :S
[...]

Stop chilling around naked you perv ! 

[Joseph Porta]

Stop chilling around naked you perv ! 

I know you like it bro 

[MURDERTRON]

Can bodkins damage be reduced while still changing the damage type to pierce?  Alternatively, you coulda drop the damage of all bows and raise the damage on cut type arrows.  This would at the very least create a reason to ever not use bodkins over other types of arrows.  ie: cut arrows doing more damage to lightly armored and bodkins doing more consistent damage overall.  Infantry players have to make this decision every round, but it seems like archers never do.

[Godfredus]

Archers can draw their bow AND move

This.

Reduce drawing-a-bow speed a bit and significantly reduce their MOVING SPEED WHILE DRAWING.
This will make archers to decide when cav closing to them: they're running or they're risking to get killed while shooting.
I mean: not archer will decide when cav will move shield away to take a swing but the attacking cav will dictate archer's timing if archer decided not to run away, and be able rout them safe for sure, as it should be in melee cavalry vs ranged.

This will restore cavalry as real ranged's scissors.
Also this will destroy kiting scenario since drawing a bow will mean almost a stopping ergo engaging in melee.

[Joseph Porta]

Biggest Str-whore EU supports this claim, i'm probably in the 2% of any server with less than 40 body armour at any one time. Agi-whores and pick spammers and ninjas all got more than me lol, this mod.

Then again, you wanna QQ about ranged it really is mainly an issue with vanilla warband that they added ranged classes as a 'sniping' class rather than a spray + pray class which is how i always perceived medieval warfare with archers - you line the archers up and all fire in roughly the same direction, you suppress and hit infantry but with no knowledge of your individual confirmed kills or not. Play native for 10 mins and you'll QQ less about ranged in this mod.

However, the current state of armour in crpg is a joke, everyone and his mother has more armour here than they would after a 50-kill streak in native multiplayer. It doesnt stop because some bright spark somewhere invented the ludicrous rumour that more armour is not inherently better, it's just a tradeoff, and 50% of the community was dumb enough to believe them.

I know exactly how you feel. Albeit I choose not to loom armour because I change outfit practicly each round, if not every two or three deaths (siege) and it would be pointless to loom it, I still think that armour is far too abundant in this game. I dont know the average of armour in c-rpg but it wouldn't surprise me if it's close to the 50 body armour.

IIRC, blackbow runs around with a pot helmet and heavy Gotland armour. really? doesn't this strike you as odd?

[Tydeus]

Can bodkins damage be reduced while still changing the damage type to pierce?  Alternatively, you coulda drop the damage of all bows and raise the damage on cut type arrows.  This would at the very least create a reason to ever not use bodkins over other types of arrows.  ie: cut arrows doing more damage to lightly armored and bodkins doing more consistent damage overall.  Infantry players have to make this decision every round, but it seems like archers never do.

This can only be done properly through a long series of changes that would include alterations to the soak/reduce values. I realize it may seem like an easy thing, but it's a delicate system. For example, depending on your bow, bodkins might NEVER do enough damage to warrant using them, and you're suggesting lower bodkin damage further? On the other hand, if you're using a Rus or Long bow, you have no reason to be using anything other than Bodkins, unless you just want to be able to spam more, while having lower damage potential per quiver.

On a side note, the HA malus really needs decreased (a clear nerf).

[Macbeth3]

This might be a weird suggestion. But what if Bodkins are turned into blunt damage, and give no damage bonus at all?.

Woudn't that in theory increase the survivability of Light/medium armor, while still have enough armor penetration to be as strong as the current bodkins on heavy armor? (Since blunt damage has a higher minimum-damage, but lower maximum damage) Ontop of that, it would cause less "scaling" with PD, thus reducing the overall damage slightly.

This is ofcourse just a suggestion.

Tydeus, You might have some "numbers" for something like this?

*Edit* And is it possible to give arrows a negative damage component? You could tweak damage for possible blunt arrows like this?

Make lighter armor slightly better agianst ranged with this, but keep it somewhat the same for Heavy armor.

[Switchtense]

Let archers wear heavy as shit armour if they want to.

They are far less manoeuvrable than someone wearing light armour and their weapon proficiency punishment is higher.

Every "über-archer" who was mentioned here wears light-ish armour. Bagge, Nebun, Steevee. Never really seen any of them wear heavy armour.

[Tydeus]

Blunt arrows would be a step in the wrong direction as blunt has the best armor penetration.

Let archers wear heavy as shit armour if they want to.

They are far less manoeuvrable than someone wearing light armour and their weapon proficiency punishment is higher.

Every "über-archer" who was mentioned here wears light-ish armour. Bagge, Nebun, Steevee. Never really seen any of them wear heavy armour.

The wpf penalty from armor used to be 1/2 what it is now(and even lower, before that) yet armor usage hasn't changed since the retirement wpf shenanigans were removed over 3 yeas ago.

[Macbeth3]

Blunt arrows would be a step in the wrong direction as blunt has the best armor penetration.

But doesn't that mean you can simply decrease the actual damage values of the arrows (or even go into the negative on the arrows) and therefor make them do roughly the same damage to the armored targets, yet less on light-armored targets?

(Is there any damage calculator somewhere for ranged, that can change Weapon damage/type so I could check it out?)


(Just pulling numbers out of my ass here)

For instance. Bodkins: +2 pierce damage. With longbow does for example 20 damage against high armor, and 50 against low armor
                     Bodking:  -5 Blunt damage. With longbow does 20 damage to High armor, 40 against low armor.

Something like this? Maintaining the damage against high armor while lowering it against the lightly armored.

Once I find a damage calculator that allow for these things to be tested, I could give some acutal numbers, perhaps.

[Grumbs]

Let archers wear heavy as shit armour if they want to.

They are far less manoeuvrable than someone wearing light armour and their weapon proficiency punishment is higher.

Every "über-archer" who was mentioned here wears light-ish armour. Bagge, Nebun, Steevee. Never really seen any of them wear heavy armour.

We don't necessarily need to target nerfs at the best players. To me the idea is to make sure there are fewer safe havens for players who don't want to learn to get better at the game. HA/HX is a clear one, uber hybrid mode (no real drawbacks) is another especially with xbows (shield, 1 hander, xbow and decent armour)