Author Topic: Iraq falling appart  (Read 55122 times)

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Offline Charlemagne_De_Kingsmith

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Re: Iraq falling appart
« Reply #450 on: September 08, 2014, 12:42:59 pm »
-1
http://www.evilbible.com/

http://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.html

Ah yes evil bible, a Muslim once linked me to that site.

Darn one thing I hate more than anything is when people copy and past a mass of quotes hoping that it will results in hushing an opponent of islam.
But I shall pick through and try to answer as much as I can.
A question one must ask before criticizing these verses is are they commands from god and are they commandments that are to be continued? They are not. All of it is written record of what has happened, much like a history book. To understand each of these verses you would have to study them in the right context, most I do not have time for.

Answering the massacre that occured in 2 Kings 10:18-27
God ordered Jehu to destroy the house of Ahab, but he does not order Jehu to massacre all the worshipers of Baal.
6 Jehu got up and went into the house. Then the prophet poured the oil on Jehu’s head and declared, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anoint you king over the Lord’s people Israel. 7 You are to destroy the house of Ahab your master, and I will avenge the blood of my servants the prophets and the blood of all the Lord’s servants shed by Jezebel. 8 The whole house of Ahab will perish. I will cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel—slave or free.a 9 I will make the house of Ahab like the house of Jeroboam son of Nebat and like the house of Baasha son of Ahijah. 10 As for Jezebel, dogs will devour her on the plot of ground at Jezreel, and no one will bury her.’ ” Then he opened the door and ran.

Jehu went agains Gods order, going way overboard. Thats why in Hosea 1:4-5 God declares he will punish Jehu for what he did in 2 Kings 10:18.
In Hosea 1:4-5
4 Then the Lord said to Hosea, “Call him Jezreel, because I will soon punish the house of Jehu for the massacre at Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of Israel. 5In that day I will break Israel’s bow in the Valley of Jezreel.”

So from this we see that one Jehu was not orderd by god to kill all of the Baal worshipers just Ahab and his line, two God condems Jehu for his actions that lead to the massacre, and three no where in that chapter or verse does it command "us" to kill unbelievers.

In Judges 21 God never told them to do what they did, they didnt seek out the Lord for advice and as the writter remindes the reader in Judges 21:25 "In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit."
It actually mentions that the Elders were the ones who instructed the Benjamites to hide in the vineyards to go take those women.
Judges 21:15-22
15 The people grieved for Benjamin, because the Lord had made a gap in the tribes of Israel. 16 And the elders of the assembly said, “With the women of Benjamin destroyed, how shall we provide wives for the men who are left? 17 The Benjamite survivors must have heirs,” they said, “so that a tribe of Israel will not be wiped out. 18 We can’t give them our daughters as wives, since we Israelites have taken this oath: ‘Cursed be anyone who gives a wife to a Benjamite.’ 19 But look, there is the annual festival of the Lord in Shiloh, which lies north of Bethel, east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and south of Lebonah.”
20 So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, “Go and hide in the vineyards 21 and watch. When the young women of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, rush from the vineyards and each of you seize one of them to be your wife. Then return to the land of Benjamin. 22 When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, ‘Do us the favor of helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war. You will not be guilty of breaking your oath because you did not give your daughters to them.’ ”


In Psalm 137, I think the whole chapter explains itself dont it?
Psalm 137
1 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion.
2 There on the poplars
we hung our harps,
3 for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”
4How can we sing the songs of the Lord
while in a foreign land?
5 If I forget you, Jerusalem,
may my right hand forget its skill.
6 May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth
if I do not remember you,
if I do not consider Jerusalem
my highest joy.
7Remember, Lord, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell.
“Tear it down,” they cried,
“tear it down to its foundations!”
8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is the one who repays you
according to what you have done to us.
9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

Its talking about gods people going into captivity and being tortured by Babylon. Its not a commandment to kill babies and no where does god approve of what is in the verse. One must remember that Psalmist recorded alot of things just like a historian, god, bad, and the ugly just like many other writters in the bible.
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Offline Charlemagne_De_Kingsmith

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Re: Iraq falling appart
« Reply #451 on: September 08, 2014, 12:55:53 pm »
0
And when you point it out people just say oooh but thats the old testament, jesus did this and that...

I remember reading somewhere that Christianity matured as a religion. Crusades, inquisition, intolerance, science suppresion etc were part of the rebelious teenage phase of the past, which Islam being a younger religion, is currently in. Not trying to justify anything, the statement just struck a chord with me i guess.

Does the bible ever command one a follower of Jesus Christ to massacre people like the Crusaders did, or torture people like what the inquisition did?

That rebellious teenage stage that you are talking about with Christianity is the stage where many fell away from the proper teachings of Jesus, they pretty much opposed what Jesus asked of his followers. But as time went by people began to understand the bible more and more. I forgot what it was called but it was a period of enlightenment.
Islam however can never go through such a phase due to the fact that in order to do that would mean removing Muhammad and Allah from the Quran, and no one can ever do that lol
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Offline Charlemagne_De_Kingsmith

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Re: Iraq falling appart
« Reply #452 on: September 08, 2014, 01:02:14 pm »
0
Syr 33,26 and 25

I can not find that book, is that even the bible you are quoting. Is syrach non-english for a book in the bible?
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Offline Charlemagne_De_Kingsmith

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Re: Iraq falling appart
« Reply #453 on: September 08, 2014, 01:06:12 pm »
0
Funny how things like the Inquisition and Witch Burnings never happened in the heads of the Islamophobs :P

I will also carry around that name Islamophobe with pride thank you  :mrgreen:

I would rather oppose such a disgusting beast rather than bow like a coward unwilling to question.


And also with the inquisitions and witch hunts and such how bout you search up what the Muslim is doing to Christians and other groups around the world.
How do you pronounce Charlemagne? Shar-la-main =D

Offline Xant

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Re: Iraq falling appart
« Reply #454 on: September 08, 2014, 01:27:26 pm »
+1
Huh? I meant the practitioners and the doctrine getting more laid back over time. I dont believe in god
How can the practitioners and doctrine get more laid back if their God doesn't get more laid back? I understand what you're trying to say, but it's silly. Those people don't really believe in God anymore, it's just a belief in belief.

A question one must ask before criticizing these verses is are they commands from god and are they commandments that are to be continued? They are not. All of it is written record of what has happened, much like a history book.
No, it's no different from when you said:

what ISIS is now doing is exactly what Mohammad commanded his followers to do. They live by his example.

You could as easily claim that Christians live by God's example by slaughtering new-born babies.
Meaning lies as much
in the mind of the reader
as in the Haiku.

Offline Daunt_Flockula

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Re: Iraq falling appart
« Reply #455 on: September 08, 2014, 01:30:02 pm »
0
Those people don't really believe in God anymore, it's just a belief in belief.

This^
I really couldn't have put it any better myself.

Offline Molly

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Re: Iraq falling appart
« Reply #456 on: September 08, 2014, 01:39:04 pm »
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I will also carry around that name Islamophobe with pride thank you  :mrgreen:

I would rather oppose such a disgusting beast rather than bow like a coward unwilling to question.


And also with the inquisitions and witch hunts and such how bout you search up what the Muslim is doing to Christians and other groups around the world.

You're obviously too ignorant to get it.
When west germany annexed east germany, nobody moved a finger too.

Offline Leshma

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Re: Iraq falling appart
« Reply #457 on: September 08, 2014, 01:51:13 pm »
0
they didnt fight/shot and stuff

So clueless...

Do you know what happens to people who oppose violence when majority around them is embracing it? They are immediately labeled as traitors. ISIS supporters are crucifying fellow Muslims who don't embrace their ideas. They are being tortured.

Anyone who comes out there in one piece isn't innocent.

Offline Daunt_Flockula

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Re: Iraq falling appart
« Reply #458 on: September 08, 2014, 01:59:25 pm »
0
Its not about "curing" fanatism, its about making people behave and re-integrate society. A totally different story.
Curing fanatism as in making a religious djihadist into a non-violent atheist would be a job for psychiatric hospitals.

I have seen countless religious people turn atheists, but that only happens when the person in question has never been such a fanatic that he gets armed and starts killing so called "infidels" (or at least thinks about doing so). A fanatic will end up trying to find ways of killing you too once you approach him with thoughts of rehabilitating his disorder, which he thinks isn't wrong at all and should be embraced by every single human being on earth. Call it an illness, a social problem, an integration issue or anything else you like. One absolute truth is that it is not something that can be washed away from one's mind. The sad truth is that not everything about humans can be "fixed", although modern psychology and medicine believes otherwise.

Offline Teeth

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Re: Iraq falling appart
« Reply #459 on: September 08, 2014, 02:02:44 pm »
0
Syr 33,26 and 25
The book of Sirach is not in what protestants accept as the canonical Bible.

That said, you have to really dearly want to keep up the hippy god of love appearance to be able to read in between the lines of the Old Testament and not notice the clear racism and excessive violence. The god of the Old Testament looks remarkably like any other tribal diety, highly preferential towards the people it got invented by.

Offline Leshma

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Re: Iraq falling appart
« Reply #460 on: September 08, 2014, 02:03:55 pm »
0
And when you point it out people just say oooh but thats the old testament, jesus did this and that...

It is all fairy tales and folk stories but... under false assumption that anything written in that book actually happened, Jesus story is the only thing of value in there. That is why Jesus has central role in Christianity. Suffering of Jesus Christ is the pivotal point in Bible and it serves as a guide, what happened before serves as an introduction so that people can better understand Jesus. It is not integral or even important part of Christian belief, at least it shouldn't be. But people are fools so it kinda happened that Jewish legends are just as important as story about Jesus.

Despite the fact that everything written in that book is probably completely false or highly exaggerated (Jesus part without fantastic aspects could be true), story of Jesus helped us immensely and is perfect guide for clueless people who can't figure wrong from right on their own. I highly rate that story and character of Jesus Christ.

Offline Charlemagne_De_Kingsmith

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Re: Iraq falling appart
« Reply #461 on: September 08, 2014, 02:10:03 pm »
0
How can the practitioners and doctrine get more laid back if their God doesn't get more laid back? I understand what you're trying to say, but it's silly. Those people don't really believe in God anymore, it's just a belief in belief.
No, it's no different from when you said:

You could as easily claim that Christians live by God's example by slaughtering new-born babies.

I'll be a smart-ass and say that Atheist are more likely to kill their babies than Christians ever will. But if you had read what I had written you would of noted that God didn't order the killing of babies.
Here are some examples of commands in the Quran to kill the disbeliever.

Enjoy you dirty Kafir

Al Baqarah 2:91 Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, as Fitnah (to create disorder) is more severe than killing. However, do not fight them near Al-Masjid-ul-Harām (the Sacred Mosque in Makkah) unless they fight you there. However, if they fight you (there) you may kill them. Such is the reward of the disbelievers.
http://www.altafsir.com/ViewTranslations.asp?Display=yes&SoraNo=2&Ayah=191&toAyah=191&Language=2&LanguageID=2&TranslationBook=9

Al-Maidah 5:35 O you who believe, fear Allah and seek means of nearness to Him, and carry out Jihād in His way, so that you may succeed.
http://www.altafsir.com/ViewTranslations.asp?Display=yes&SoraNo=5&Ayah=35&toAyah=35&Language=2&LanguageID=2&TranslationBook=9

At-Tawbah 9:5 So, when the sacred months expire, kill the Mushriks wherever you find them, and catch them and besiege them and sit in ambush for them everywhere. Then, if they repent and establish Salāh and pay Zakāh, leave their way. Surely, Allah is most Forgiving, Very-Merciful.
http://www.altafsir.com/ViewTranslations.asp?Display=yes&SoraNo=9&Ayah=5&toAyah=5&Language=2&LanguageID=2&TranslationBook=9

At-Tawbah 9:29 Fight those People of the Book who do not believe in Allah, nor in the Last Day, and do not take as unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have declared as unlawful, and do not profess the Faith of Truth; (fight them) until they pay jizyah with their own hands while they are subdued.
http://www.altafsir.com/ViewTranslations.asp?Display=yes&SoraNo=9&Ayah=29&toAyah=29&Language=2&LanguageID=2&TranslationBook=9
How do you pronounce Charlemagne? Shar-la-main =D

Offline Charlemagne_De_Kingsmith

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Re: Iraq falling appart
« Reply #462 on: September 08, 2014, 02:12:24 pm »
0
The book of Sirach is not in what protestants accept as the canonical Bible.

That said, you have to really dearly want to keep up the hippy god of love appearance to be able to read in between the lines of the Old Testament and not notice the clear racism and excessive violence. The god of the Old Testament looks remarkably like any other tribal diety, highly preferential towards the people it got invented by.

Actually no the god in the old testament is actually quite harsh to his chosen people. He punished them many times for falling away from worshiping him.

But Im interested where is this racism you speak of? Verses?
How do you pronounce Charlemagne? Shar-la-main =D

Offline Leshma

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Re: Iraq falling appart
« Reply #463 on: September 08, 2014, 02:15:37 pm »
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I'll be a smart-ass and say that Atheist are more likely to kill their babies than Christians ever will.

Evil people kill babies.

Offline Charlemagne_De_Kingsmith

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Re: Iraq falling appart
« Reply #464 on: September 08, 2014, 02:25:40 pm »
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Evil people kill babies.

That is true, but if your talking about abortion then in some cases women should be able to abort, especially life threatening.
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