Buff round steel buckler

[Wayate]

Hello,

As stated in a precedent thread, I am working on a buckler build. Problem is, it appears to me that the buckler is unbalanced.

Let's compare the buckler to a same tiers shield :

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- 1/4 weight of heater
- +23 body armor
- 1/3 of heater hit points
- + 14 speed
- Ridicule width (on purpose)

So objectively, we have a fast shield with a lot of body armor, that doesn't help against ranged (which is already pretty bad) and can't take as much hits as a big shield.

Subjectively, we have a shield that makes us free kills for ranged and breaks against your first STR enemy most of the time. This gets even worst when facing a bonus against shield weapon that force us to sheath the buckler.

While I do understand the need of balancing the game (or everybody would play RSB), I don't understand how you can possibly benefits from using this shield. 14 speed and 23 body armor doesn't make it against a shield that protect you from ranged. So when I chose to play a buckler, I expect it to be superior to a classic shield in melee (which is what it was designed for). In that case, I don't think 14 speed can compete with 240 more hit points. I do understand 14 speed is a huge difference, but between 14 speed slower and no shield after 2 hits, choice is easy.

So here are two options that makes sens to me :
- Give the round steel buckler a decent hits point value (actually justified, we are talking about a piece of STEEL that can't compare with wood shields !)
- Disable the penalty of carrying 2 or more shields for the round steel buckler (I won't be very happy about the upkeep, but that would be a decent start. You can't justify a penalty this high for a small piece of metal that weight 1/4 of a normal shield).

I really like the buckler for its variety of purpose and history and would like it to be a decent choice for my futur builds.

Thank you.

[Tydeus]

- Disable the penalty of carrying 2 or more shields for the round steel buckler

I take it you haven't actually tried spawning with two? Had you tried, you would notice that you're still less encumbered than had you taken just one of the Heater Shields at 6 weight. The bucklers are basically the only shields where it might actually be worth taking two, assuming you had reason to do so in the first place.

[Wayate]

I take it you haven't actually tried spawning with two? Had you tried, you would notice that you're still less encumbered than had you taken just one of the Heater Shields at 6 weight. The bucklers are basically the only shield where it might actually be worth taking two of, assuming you had reason to do so in the first place.

I did, and the speed reduction between 1 and 2 buckler was too noticeable to serve its purpose.

[Nightmare798]

I take it you haven't actually tried spawning with two? Had you tried, you would notice that you're still less encumbered than had you taken just one of the Heater Shields at 6 weight. The bucklers are basically the only shields where it might actually be worth taking two, assuming you had reason to do so in the first place.

Honestly tydeus, lugging around with 2 of them sucks. Even if they are 3 weght total they are weak and the ranged coverage still sucks.

Ranged coverage is a no-brainer of course, it is a buckler after all. But a shield made from steel being weak? That is an outrage. Especially at that price.

[Tydeus]

It could possibly use a bit more hp or armor, but for its weight and the fact that it's 0 slot, I think it's fine.

[Wayate]

It could possibly use a bit more hp or armor, but for its weight and the fact that it's 0 slot, I think it's fine.

Problem is, what's the point of being a 0 slot shield ?

Sword and buckler was one of the most efficient fighting style of its time and for many centuries, designed for plunder and skirmishes. Not to be a close combat mod for ranged.

And yes, a bit of hp would be really nice. 200-210 hp for a +3 Round steel buckler would make sens. Armor seems quite good.

[WITCHCRAFT]

There is a reason that no army has ever marched a line of soldiers with tiny bucklers against ranged enemies. It's not supposed to work that way. It's a small but durable shield that is used for reactively deflecting blows, not catching any ranged fire aimed at you.

They are great if you go for a high agility build with 6 or more shield skill. An heirloomed buckler with high shield skill is durable enough to last you through a round of combat. But look at the fucking thing, do you really expect it to block ranged as well as a heater, kite shield, or board shield? It's tiny, how the hell is it supposed to catch arrows aimed anywhere but your arm and chest?

As far as it being 0 slots, within the crpg metagame it lets you do a few niche things that no other shield can. Aside from ranged getting a wep and shield under 4 slots, you can also carry a buckler and sidearm as a pikeman. You can spawn with a weapon, buckler, and siege shield or spikes. Maps with chokepoints for cav are worth using spikes on. Open maps with no cover are worth using the siege shield. You can give your ranged a huge advantage by providing cover without forcing a shielder to stand guard over the ranged player.

These screenshots are from before the shield skill was reworked (there is less forcefield now), but high shield skill will still let you do really goofy physics-defying things like:

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This one is really funny. My buckler outlasted a horse archer's entire quiver of arrows

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Note the fact that my shield isn't even damaged.

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All four of these arrows hit my buckler, not me.

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In conclusion, buckler is fine and if you pump your shield skill a little more it will do the magic kung-fu bullet-magnet magic bullshit that you want it to do. It doesn't need a buff, it's really good.

[Wayate]

do you really expect it to block ranged as well as a heater, kite shield, or board shield? It's tiny, how the hell is it supposed to catch arrows aimed anywhere but your arm and chest?

As far as it being 0 slots, within the crpg metagame it lets you do a few niche things that no other shield can. Aside from ranged getting a wep and shield under 4 slots, you can also carry a buckler and sidearm as a pikeman. You can spawn with a weapon, buckler, and siege shield or spikes. Maps with chokepoints for cav are worth using spikes on. Open maps with no cover are worth using the siege shield. You can give your ranged a huge advantage by providing cover without forcing a shielder to stand guard over the ranged player.

I'm sorry but I think you should read this thread again. We are talking about a small versatile melee shield, supposed to block fast and protect agile warriors from melee weapons. I never expected it to catch a single arrow : it is not its purpose, it wasn't designed for it.

About the number of slots, cRPG is just mistaking the purpose of the buckler : it was a very efficient weapon for skilled fighter, not a second choice shield you take when your slots are full.

It's a small but durable shield that is used for reactively deflecting blows

As you said yourself, it's supposed to be a DURABLE shield. Actually, the Round steel buckler is everything but durable with its 120 hp.

[WITCHCRAFT]

I'm sorry but I think you should read this thread again. We are talking about a small versatile melee shield, supposed to block fast and protect agile warriors from melee weapons. I never expected it to catch a single arrow : it is not its purpose, it wasn't designed for it.

Ah, my bad. I was reading "doesn't help against ranged" from you and "Ranged coverage is a no-brainer of course" from nightmare to mean that a buff against range was requested. Your actual intent makes more sense now

About the number of slots, cRPG is just mistaking the purpose of the buckler : it was a very efficient weapon for skilled fighter, not a second choice shield you take when your slots are full.

As you said yourself, it's supposed to be a DURABLE shield. Actually, the Round steel buckler is everything but durable with its 120 hp.

If you want to be efficient and skilled with a weapon, you level up PS and WPF. If you want to be skilled and efficient with a shield, you level up the shield skill. The buckler is viable at higher shield skill levels, and its light weight makes it a better choice than a regular shield since both of them will become so durable that they are practically invincible (except against axes). This makes sense to me in regards to realism - using a buckler to defend yourself is harder than just holding up a board shield or round shield.

I can't think of any other way to explain it, I just keep writing the same thing in different words. The buckler works well at high shield skill because only a skilled shield user can wield it to its full potential. It's not garbage, it's not unusable. It's one of the best shields if you are going for an agile equipment-light melee fighter. If you could get the fastest shield at 1/3 the weight of other 3 requirement shields, and it was just as durable, there would be no reason to take anything but the buckler.

It's fine as it is. I say this because I used it and the steel buckler as a shield-focused 1H melee character and they were my favorite shields, hands-down. They are excellent and I would highly recommend anyone with 18+ agility to max out their shield skill if they plan to use a light weight or small shield.

The only thing to fear are 2H axes (I have survived 10-12 swings from 1H axes regularly) and crushthrough weapons, but that's true of all shields. It is very durable against swords and spears.

[San]

Hp was increased from 100 to 120 recently. A little more wouldn't be too bad, but I think you're underestimating the effect of the armor.

[Johammeth]

RSB has always been underwhelming to me: more of a funky gadget/oddity than a terribly useful item.

But then again it is a 3 skill shield living in the shadow of its 5 skill brother (Steel Buckler), so I'm not surprised.

Adding to the family drama, The Long Lost Cousin "Knightly Kite Shield" has moved into their apartment and seems to be angling for Big Brother's job.

[Nightmare798]

-snip-

My eyes hurt...

[San]

May I ask how much shield you had, Witchcraft?

[Gravoth_iii]

Try looming the buckler, thats what i did and the health gain is crazy considering how big of a % it increases.
120 base hitpoints, and then +53 at masterwork. Thats a massive gain considering its kind of traded hitpoints for high armour in the first place, now you get both a decent amount of hitpoints and a ton of armour for 1.5 weight. The size is still a problem, i feel it used to block ranged better in the past compared to some recent patch but im not sure if there has been any changes to shield sizes.

Personally i find it to be a really good shield for high agility builds. Being 0 slot is also a great thing, as a hoplite polearmer i usually grab my warspear, the buckler (for hoplite funtimes) and then a long axe. It doesnt really need a buff, its really good for odd builds.

[Nightmare798]

Try looming the buckler, thats what i did and the health gain is crazy considering how big of a % it increases.
120 base hitpoints, and then +53 at masterwork. Thats a massive gain considering its kind of traded hitpoints for high armour in the first place, now you get both a decent amount of hitpoints and a ton of armour for 1.5 weight. The size is still a problem, i feel it used to block ranged better in the past compared to some recent patch but im not sure if there has been any changes to shield sizes.

Personally i find it to be a really good shield for high agility builds. Being 0 slot is also a great thing, as a hoplite polearmer i usually grab my warspear, the buckler (for hoplite funtimes) and then a long axe. It doesnt really need a buff, its really good for odd builds.

Three lps for 53hp? Not that great deal if you ask me...

The main problem of bucklers (and shields in general) is the bonus against shield. Tons of people nowadays carry some sort of axe . Compared to swords, axes have very meagre disadvantages while having bonus against shield.

As I said earlier, I think this is utter bs as it rewards brawn over skill and also terribly unfair to shielders themselves.