EU vote 2014, GO VOTE OR DIE

[Herezy92]

Double post (sorry for this)

The question is what exactly do we gain? We put in a lot of cash etc but i see nothing great that the EU actually gives us except rules and regulations.

- The Europe of Energy (buying the whole energy europeans needs at one, to have much cheaper price. And same for OIL)
- The Europe of Defense. (if all countries support a small part of EU defense it will cost much less for all of us)
- The Europe of Financial regulation (I'm not a fan of US financial system )
- The Europe of Development (we don't know it enough but European Bank is supporting a lot of projects/new constructions. (hang around in your town, and check the new construction, many of these new projects received an important help of EU bank))
- The Europe of Diplomacy (acting as one to have more impact)
- The Europe of Human rights

[Osiris]

The Europe of Human rights is horrible. The quicker we get rid of that act the better. EU telling us not allowing prisoners to vote is breaking their human rights? Making the UK unable to deport criminals and terrorists. European Courts should not be able to over rule UK courts. Defense is hmm well doesn't seem to do much anyway Financial regulation is a bone of contention in London at least the rest im not sure about would have to look into it

[Kafein]

How is that "basic anti-immigrant rhetoric"?

Every major German city, especially Berlin, struggles with the dozens of romanians and bulgarians that come here every month (with their whole family, of course) just to get child benefits and social welfare. Only thing that makes this possible is EU and it's laws.
It's simple facts that a big majority of those people comes here to get welfare checks, even if they live on the street or in ailing buildings under bad conditions, because with the welfare money they still live a far better life than in their home country.
Some of them want to work, of course, but almost none of them gets work, because they don't speak German and most of them lack any kind of education or apprenticeship.

I can't condemn them for coming here, if "our" EU laws allow it. If I would be on their place, I'd come too. But, the overwhelming majority of immigration happening into european countries like Germany does not benefit the economy or society at all. Most immigrants (I'm not talking about those already living here for several generations, but those arriving nowadays) only extract money from the welfare state system but give little to nothing in return.
It's a failure of the national politics of the single countries and a failure of the whole system " EU ".

inb4 Molly calls me a nazi: This whole issue is and was discussed in many German talkshows on state-run television aka ARD and ZDF and also on several talkshows on privat tv. I take what I say from several of those shows where politicians, professors, society-experts, sociologists and so on where discussing immigration and other linked topics.
The thing with romanians and bulgarians comign for welfare was from a woman in a high position in Berlins city administration, she just was amazingly honest (and was called right-winged-minded by leftist politicians for it, oh the irony).

First, to claim immigrants are just there for the welfare is populist and xenophobic.
Second, maybe you wouldn't mind immigrants if the welfare system was suited to the situation. It's the same issue once again. Nationalists think this is the 19th century and countries can live in isolation. Well no, you can't.

The question is what exactly do we gain? We put in a lot of cash etc but i see nothing great that the EU actually gives us except rules and regulations. The only thing i can see good about the EU is free trade etc. I cant see any other real benefits. Unless im mistaken which is ofc very possible with such a massive bureaucratic system. Not saying this is accurate just an interesting article even it it does ignore most other parts of the EU

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2052433/Chart-How-does-Britain-pay-EU-does-back.html

Britain's EU contributions chart

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I don't think the reason the UK is in the EU is to get cash. The EU isn't a money printer, it's an organization. In fact the UK benefits from all the other things the EU does, collectively with the other members. To think of it as a zero sum game where some countries pay money and some others receive money is a complete mis-representation. Case in point, we don't loldevaluate against each other's currency, we don't have a pandemonium of varying national regulations stifling business, we can move around freely, and everybody has a say in it. Take Switzerland, for example. The Swiss industry is de facto following EU regulations, even though they don't have much say about it. Even more important, the Swiss bank secrecy bullshit has been largely dealt with, thanks to the EU.

I would like opinions on what others like about the EU rather than just screaming OMG XENOPHOBIC RACIST YOUR STUPID etc. How about a real post with reasons instead of crap like this

just because someone doesn't hold the same views as you doesn't make them a manipulated retard get out of your own ass and maybe post why you think its stupid?

It's stupid because a nation-state organization cannot deal with 21st century problems like tax evasion and climate change. It's stupid because history already shown it's stupid.

[Herezy92]

The Europe of Human rights is horrible. The quicker we get rid of that act the better. EU telling us not allowing prisoners to vote is breaking their human rights? Making the UK unable to deport criminals and terrorists. European Courts should not be able to over rule UK courts. Defense is hmm well doesn't seem to do much anyway Financial regulation is a bone of contention in London at least the rest im not sure about would have to look into it

I don't consider UK as real member of EU.
For me, it's a member with a special statut. So, your situation is a bit different. (not sharing shengen, not sharing €, etc...)

For the defense, at the moment, it's mostly France & Great Britain doing the job, and it cost a lot.

For the human rights, if you think Human rights are just about prisonners (which i don't give a fuck ) you are wrong^^  it's much wider than this.

For the economy, you can not imagine how the free-trade boost the inside exchange in Europe.(no more tax at borders, same money = no more tax transfer)

But i'm not saying that European Union has no problems, we have tons of problems, and as i said, we must change/fix it, and not leave it. (unless if you like French-retreat act)

[Osiris]

Well i said i wanted a referendum and that will happen if the tories win and if they can re negotiate. But plz vibe show me this history that makes countries stupid and that we must all belong to one state.

For the human rights, if you think Human rights are just about prisonners (which i don't give a fuck ) you are wrong^^  it's much wider than this.

It is much wider yes but it still needs a massive overhaul imo

[Tomas_Miles_again]

Well i said i wanted a referendum and that will happen if the tories win and if they can re negotiate. But plz vibe show me this history that makes countries stupid and that we must all belong to one state.

The fall of numerous small states over the millennia of human existence. The rise of larger states.

[Osiris]

and yet we have more smaller states now than for a long time? I can see we are going nowhere tho People like vibe just insult and look down on anyone with a different opinion, They are superior in intellect to everyone else. Ive met them before and i just try to ignore them now.

[Tomas_Miles_again]

More smaller states? Where and what scale do you mean?

Edit: globally I think the number of states globally is decreasing.

Another edit: thanks for the info Osiris, very interesting.

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My statement was wrong

[Osiris]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_the_1950s   1950 there was 99 widely recognized sovereign states

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_the_2010s  2010s there was 195

most recent country i think is south sudan with Scotland due to vote for it soon. The world isnt moving towards fewer larger states it seems to be doing quite the opposite

http://geography.about.com/cs/countries/a/newcountries.htm

link easier than the crap i posted

[Overdriven]

Biggest mistake we ever made was turning our back on the commonwealth in favor of the EEC. People in the UK never voted for anything remotely like the EU and what it has grown into to. At the time it was simply a vote to join a common market. The transition to the EU was something entirely political and has never been popular with people in the UK, particularly as the decision was never presented to the people.

Problem is, transitioning back to stronger ties with the commonwealth will be a lot more difficult after we favoured Europe originally.

Still, the decision should lie with the everyday person in the UK and I would welcome a referendum.

[Tomas_Miles_again]

Next stop: Super-combine Commonwealth with EU

[Moncho]

The thing about big and small states is a cyclic one imo, you have big empires/nations that conglomerate loads of smaller ones, that grow and become bigger and eventually rot and disintegrate into smaller components. The bigger a nation is, the harder it is for people to agree, and nationalism (meant as in the preference for your immediate surrounding area, be it a region, country or whatever it happens to be called at the time) has and will always be a big obstacle towards bigger entities, which works for companies because it is a pyramidal system, but cannot work for countries with democracy because you won't get people to agree on most things.

Another point that the EU has done is bringing countries that had historically been at odds with each other in common. I am not sure about this, but before 1945 I don't think there has been a period longer than 30-40 years without wars between the major states of western Europe, and by trading instead of invading, the EU is trying to help with that.

Also about the regions that are trying to split (Scotland and Catalonia I know something about, there may be more), they are attempting to split from the current state to attempt to join the EU with the status of member state, instead of just part of one, so it is not entirely towards splitting.

[Leshma]

Well i said i wanted a referendum and that will happen if the tories win and if they can re negotiate. But plz vibe show me this history that makes countries stupid and that we must all belong to one state.

Last week my shitty one nation country went through disaster. It was inevitable but still we weren't prepared and now we have no means to fix the country. Old country, federal country which wasn't nation based was able to deal with similar situation much better and actually repair the country. Yugoslavia (federal country) was much better in every way than combination of modern countries that were part of Yugoslavia. There are all shitty (including Slovenia) and can't defend themselves from any threat. Also Yugoslavia was communist country, which is a huge malus (because planned economy sucks ass), if it wasn't communist but more like Norway it would be couple times stronger.

Now back to your country. Reason why Great Britain was great empire is slavery and exploitation of colonies. Not because you're especially awesome or capable compared to other countries of similar scale.

Reason why USA is great country are IMMIGRANTS, even today. If USA was populated only by the likes of AntiBlitz, it would become another Russia in no time. What fuels that country are capable immigrants that come from less fortunate places. Every country has to go through decadence and native population is the first to fail for that trap.

Reason why foreigners take your jobs is not because they are evil enitity. They take your jobs because in the meantime those jobs have become low qualified jobs. You can protect your citizens with isolation, but that won't work in the long run. If average british citizen was an IT expert or had expertise in some other field crucial for current state of British economy, you can be damn sure very few illegal immigrants would be able to fill his spot. But he just like any other common man, likes to drink bear and be lazy dude most of his time.

[Ikarus]

They take your jobs because in the meantime those jobs have become low qualified jobs.

Reminds me of a street interview, where some guy said that foreigners take all the jobs. The reporter asked, if he´d work as a trashman or newsman and he replied "Nah I could never do that". Speaking of "taking all the jobs", pff

Ah, I got some voice in my head, coming from the void

HESKEYTIME

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Keep me in the action i dont care about the EU, but folk need to realize voting for UKIP and BNP isnt a 'rational vote to leave the EU', it's a huge step in the wrong direction where people only see 'anti EU' and 'anti immigration' and decide they're the party for them.

Also, if you wanted a nationalistic powerful party that would make the trains run on time i dont see a problem with that, but then why vote for the tiniest least efficient parties in the UK? Just because they're right-wing fascist doesnt automatically make them efficient lol, they know nothing about politics or ruling, they only know how to make drastic-sounding policies. What you'd get is a xenophobic party with power, the trains would still not run on time cos those parties are a joke.

You're voting chocolate chip cookie without any of their efficiency or charisma. Hardly something to 'make Britain great'.

[Teeth]

Britain's EU contributions chart

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This is exactly one of those demagogic and fallacious arguments that Nigel Farage and for example Geert Wilders in my country rely on to get support from the ignorant. This is not a good argument. International organizations are not an investment, you don't give money to the EU and then later the EU gives you a bigger bag of money back. The UK is a member of dozens of international organisations and very few of them would have a positive balance, so should the UK leave the UN for example as well then? The only things this graph looks at for returns are EU subsidies to the UK, completely discounting 90% of the other benefits that the EU can potentially offer.

Here is just a list of the top of my head:

• Removal of tariffs and other trade barriers
• Increased FDI because of the large EU market
• EU's strong negotation position in the WTO
• Easier access to larger workforce for businesses
• Common legislation on trade marks and intellectual property
• EU competition law
• One set of EU wide regulation instead of 27 seperate ones
• Cheaper communication, transport and travel

Now these are only benefits for the economy, which leaves out some other extremely important things. Things I find so important that I wouldn't even mind if it cost my country money. Things like security, environment, human rights, energy security, global influence and the spread of liberal ideas. Despite my little list, I do not dare to claim that the UK has benefitted economically from their membership of the EU, though I think it is very plausible. What I do dare to claim is that the any arguments that have been presented by parties like the UKIP do not at all prove the opposite. It is extremely difficult, if not impossible to measure whether membership has been beneficial, because the EU has had a very diffuse impact on many aspects. The way they measured it in this article is utter bullshit.

Edited because I was being unnecessarily snidey, apologies.