Author Topic: Meanwhile in USA  (Read 60244 times)

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Offline Jeade

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Re: Law enforcement in America.
« Reply #165 on: April 09, 2014, 03:19:31 am »
+6
"Super tough spot." That situation might have been super tough for a couple of grade school girls, but police officers equipped like that? Nope.

Rational, non-emotional, thoughtful argument.

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Offline Paul

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Re: Law enforcement in America.
« Reply #166 on: April 09, 2014, 06:34:32 am »
+3
It's the insufferable Xant.

Offline Eugen

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Re: Law enforcement in America.
« Reply #167 on: April 09, 2014, 07:45:05 am »
+2
What a cool place to camp. What a pitty camping is not allowed there.

Still that camper must be in a psychopathic state of mind  to cling to his knives when confronted by "special forces".  Its not the first and will not be the last desperate or mentaly ill person who dies (or is severly injured) in conflict with law enforcement sadly.

I am not very shocked becouse the squad did use nonlethal methods. I fully understand why those guys didnt close in to an armed person who is desperate or mental ill and therfore unpredictable.

Maybe it was not that necessary to call in this special forces squad at all and the local officer should just have dropped the card of some social service to the camper... but thats a would have been, what do I know what happened first hand thing.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 08:04:06 am by Eugen »
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Offline Xant

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Re: Law enforcement in America.
« Reply #168 on: April 09, 2014, 09:27:23 am »
0
Rational, non-emotional, thoughtful argument.

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Yup, it was. And it's been backed up more than your "wow, what a tough spot" argument.
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Offline Butan

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Re: Law enforcement in America.
« Reply #169 on: April 09, 2014, 01:52:46 pm »
0
I know from experience that most bouncers go into "breaking-bones mode" when knives get involved, no matter the mental condition.
Those bones normally heal tho :D

If stabbing/shooting inside a nightclub didnt kill the business, they would go "kill-you mode". Some nightclubs do, but then only criminals ever goes in, or unsuspecting people.

Not all bones heal, and being a bouncer is shit when you are in a honourable business and you have to deal with dangerous people, for the same reason than policemen... Except that its even shittier since you're only a citizen in a fucked up job.


What I could concede to Xant and Xant followers is that there is "braver" policemen out there that are ready to sacrifice themselves to save others, even armed people threatening them. But they are few and far between; those few have a shorter life expectancy, and the hierarchy doesnt support them for obvious reasons...
Still, the "normal" cops are not cowards, they are way braver than your run-of-the-mill citizen, who will 99% of the time just run back in their house and watch with googles when shit hit the fan, and then tweet about how such and such actions are intolerable, while they drink their pina colada... /thread

Offline The_Bloody_Nine

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Re: Law enforcement in America.
« Reply #170 on: April 09, 2014, 03:24:04 pm »
+2
It is ridiculous in this instance that they gunned down someone who was turning to run away from them.  That is unacceptable.  However it is also unacceptable to wave around a weapon near police, and not follow their commands.  You are quite literally risking your life if you do that.  I don't expect the police officers to put their lives on the line trying to apprehend an unstable person with a knife who has had multiple chances to comply with their commands.  But there are better ways to disarm the suspect without going trigger happy and saying "BOOYAH" when you shoot a guy in the back in cold blood. 

Every kid in America is taught you obey the police officers, and never brandish a weapon (or even a look-alike) weapon in front of a cop, or you could very well get shot.  I don't expect a police officer to try and determine if the gun you are holding is real or fake, if you raise it up they are going to defend themselves.  It's not the movies, people don't hold guns pointed at each other and scream "Drop it", if you raise a weapon towards a police officer, they will take action to make sure they go home to their kids at the end of the day.   

I think this is most important if you want to look at the overall differences between USA and many EU countries. And even guys like cracka seems to find it justified that the police should immediately use deadly force as soon as there is the tiniest chance of a weapon involved. Like Rumblood confirmed with his supersmart statement many in US think this is some natural law, and everyone not obeying it should blame himself when he ends up dead.

However this all is again so much related with the well-known circumstance that you have a shitload of weapons and especially firerarms in general in USA. It is certainly not the only reason, but a big one. In the last ten years the german police shot between 30 and 50 rounds at people per year and killed around 7 People per year. That is insane if you compare it to estimated numbers in USA, but of course german police have it fucking easy when there are much less people carrying weapons around.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 04:48:46 pm by The_Bloody_Nine »

Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Law enforcement in America.
« Reply #171 on: April 09, 2014, 03:41:02 pm »
+1
I was using a gun as a comparison because there's no grey area like a knife.  One of the first, if not the first rule of firearm safety is to never aim a firearm at something you do not intend to kill.  If you raise a firearm at a police officer who has a gun himself, he's not going to try and determine if you're serious about shooting him, or if that is a real gun or a fake gun.  He's going to go with his instinct to survive and neutralize the threat.

I think what the cops did was wrong by shooting the guy in the back.  But at the same time, the person should not be waving around weapons in front of cops when he is given many chances to drop them and comply.   I think they could have went with other options for disarming the guy, and they should never shoot someone in the back who is trying to run away from them.  That is wrong by anyone's standards (even stringent gun nuts can't defend a cop shooting someone in the back, they will try and switch the focus to something else).  I'm not trying to blame him for the cops shooting him in the back, but he is partly to blame for not de-escalating the situation when he had many chances to do so.  The police are tasked with enforcing the laws of the country, you, as a citizen, don't get to decide if you want to comply with the cops or not, that is not one of your options.  As much as I am anti-fascism and anti-police state, that is just common sense (I'm a very progressive/liberal person on the political scale)
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Offline Falka

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Re: Law enforcement in America.
« Reply #172 on: April 09, 2014, 04:34:35 pm »
0
he is partly to blame for not de-escalating the situation when he had many chances to do so. The police are tasked with enforcing the laws of the country, you, as a citizen, don't get to decide if you want to comply with the cops or not, that is not one of your options. 

The police isn't - or at least shouldn't be - allowed to shoot someone just because he doesn't do what he's told to do.

Quote
that is just common sense

Looks like we have different views on common sense.



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Offline Falka

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Re: Law enforcement in America.
« Reply #173 on: April 09, 2014, 04:43:08 pm »
+3

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Offline Molly

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Re: Law enforcement in America.
« Reply #174 on: April 09, 2014, 05:07:50 pm »
+2
If stabbing/shooting inside a nightclub didnt kill the business, they would go "kill-you mode". Some nightclubs do, but then only criminals ever goes in, or unsuspecting people.

Not all bones heal, and being a bouncer is shit when you are in a honourable business and you have to deal with dangerous people, for the same reason than policemen... Except that its even shittier since you're only a citizen in a fucked up job.
I'd expect most European countries have similar laws which apply for bouncers. That means, there is no "kill"-mode cuz you're going to jail in any circumstance imaginable. Those "criminal clubs" you're mentioning usually don't have "random" bouncers but people from within their ranks. They don't count as bouncers in my book.
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Made a spoiler cuz it became a wall of text :?
Last time I worked a door was prolly 6 years ago but I still have contact to a lot of people working as bouncers.
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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Law enforcement in America.
« Reply #175 on: April 09, 2014, 05:29:51 pm »
+2
The police isn't - or at least shouldn't be - allowed to shoot someone just because he doesn't do what he's told to do.

Looks like we have different views on common sense.

No, the police shouldn't be allowed to shoot someone just because a suspect isn't doing what the police tell him to do.  I never said otherwise.
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Offline Butan

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Re: Law enforcement in America.
« Reply #176 on: April 09, 2014, 05:40:22 pm »
+1
If you really have been at the door you know by then that when cracking the knuckles doesnt work and you have to up the ante, you're going to have to justify yourself even if you followed the rulebook, and possibly lose your job, if police/boss wants to fuck you.
The analogy is easy to follow  :wink:  otherwise, I respect your wisdom

Offline Leshma

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Re: Law enforcement in America.
« Reply #177 on: April 09, 2014, 05:59:14 pm »
+1
New Mexico, Arizona... Wild West lives! Any similar case in New York state, perhaps?

Offline Teeth

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Re: Law enforcement in America.
« Reply #178 on: April 09, 2014, 06:14:06 pm »
+1
Knives are messy. They are ugly and they are more dangerous than most people think but they are nothing you can't handle with a proper training. I'd expect every bouncer to have the proper training when working a club. Those who don't are stupid.
Bouncers are expected to deal with knife armed people while being unarmed? Sounds incredibly stupid and saying 'nothing you can't handle' seems to greatly overestimate anyone's ability to fight unarmed versus a knife.

Offline Tovi

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Re: Law enforcement in America.
« Reply #179 on: April 09, 2014, 06:16:29 pm »
+1
Eating shit all the time, pollution and violent images affect brain health.
What else ?
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