Training lessons for 1 loom point: Official petition

[San]

^That's how it is right now, but in a much more tedious form.

If there gets to be free respecs then how do you expect all who bought training lessons to feel?

I feel fine with this.

(click to show/hide)

Paid 3.5M

[Rico]

it's a good idea yes but if  a class or a weapon will get a nerf everyone just pays some gold and respecs to play the class that was buffed and is OP at the moment..

I think this applies only partially. Some people stay loyal to their class (1h/2h/pole...) or at least to their meta class (melee/ranged/cav), no matter how overpowered or unplayable it is.

However, if we leave this aspect out, cheaper respecs would create a more dynamic environment that easily signalizes the devs what the current "master race of cRPG" is, or at least what the players consider it to be. Then, if they are unhappy with it, they can still nerf it. Sounds beneficial to me.

[BlueKnight]

If there gets to be free respecs then how do you expect all who bought training lessons to feel?

Also if this gets implemented I'm going level 35 longbow that can kite because FU.

Then I will respec to 15/27 LeoKing archer-chaser and you won't escape

Also did anyone ask heavy lance users how they felt when it first lost 3 pierce on stab? It had 23 pierce unloomed... It needed a little more than a year for balancers to compensate that nerf and when you compare it now to that item from before the nerf, it only lost 1 pierce. It needed lots of lobbing to get it useful again. And ye, that example with double exp that someone mentioned before is good too.

Letting players be free to respec would kill the use of alt´s, note that i dont have any alt´s, besides my STF so im not biased in this case.

On the other hand, i would understand if some people tend to quit cause they get sick of their builds an cant be brothered the sick grind once more

Maybe make STF´s able to be lvl 32, an increase the timer for when you can respec em once a month.

I'd prefer 1 character that can be any class than all those alts with their solid but unchangeable builds. Also ye, STFs need a buff.

They could cap the levels at 30 and give everyone over lvl 30 an equivalent amount of loompoints. Then people will still retire for looms or they stay at 30.

Lvl 30 is boring, I'd rather make everyone 34 and cap it at 34-35 and make leveling to 34 take as much time as leveling to current 30-31. You have more combinations with higher levels however it would be easiest to balance it at 30, just as you suggested.

[Kaoklai]

The real reason most of the free respec supporters want free respecs is that they are levelcrutching puuties who want to be level 35 with zero downsides and never not have a level advantage.  If you're level 35, you deserve to pay an arm and a leg if you want to change class/build while magically retaining an advantage based on nothing but being an autistic grindwhore. 

As for new players (lol, all 3 of them), give them unlimited respecs level 29 and under for the first 3 gens or something. 

[BlueKnight]

The real reason most of the free respec supporters want free respecs is that they are levelcrutching puuties who want to be level 35 with zero downsides and never not have a level advantage.  If you're level 35, you deserve to pay an arm and a leg if you want to change class/build while magically retaining an advantage based on nothing but being an autistic grindwhore. 

As for new players (lol, all 3 of them), give them unlimited respecs level 29 and under for the first 3 gens or something.

Then make everyone lvl 35 just let us freely respec characters. In last ~3 weeks I already wanted to roleplay and respec but then very soon after that I completely changed my mind and wanted to roleplay something else. I don't like being limited to lvl 30 with 'simple builds' nor I like creating new alt that leveling takes longer than the actual time I'm going to play it unless I get onto another of my roleplay rides.

I have same problem with equipment when it comes to roleplay. I have already got myself some of the things I wanted and now that I changed my mind and want to roleplay something else, I am selling the items that I just got and trying to get the new ones and it ain't that easy as some of those are true-crap-but-looks-like-I-wanted-it-to-look.

For me, those are restrictions that limit the fun.

[Soldier_of_God]

NO free respecs, that's dumb. mains and alt characters especially, don't want everyone switching classes right before a battle in strategus.
That, and arguing and pleading it wont change the fact that its a dumb idea.

If you want free respecs anytime, that's what skip the fun is for. if you have a main or alternate character, and don't know what build you want to make, then tough shit, use a character plan. there are plenty of guides and resources. in the event that you mess up on a build, respec will take you down half xp. levels don't scale evenly, they scale in tiers, so respeccing at level 30 would only lose you about 3-4 levels.  if it takes you till level 30 to figure out you need to respec.... tough shit, should have thought about that 2 million xp ago.

No personal disrespect here, but if you like mercenaries, play that game and let us play our game. CRPG is unique in that it IS unforgiving. CRPG is like dark souls, mercenaries is like elder scrolls. any game that lets you win when you want to is no fun to me, and im sure many people will agree with that. i dont want a game that holds my hand and forgives my fuck ups.

if you look through my post history, you'd find that i was among a large list of people that were in favor of allowing respecs. there is a purpose for it, but frankly, it should be used sparingly, and with caution, and the system set in place facilitates that.

[FleetFox]

NO free respecs, that's dumb. mains and alt characters especially, don't want everyone switching classes right before a battle in strategus.
That, and arguing and pleading it wont change the fact that its a dumb idea.

If you want free respecs anytime, that's what skip the fun is for. if you have a main or alternate character, and don't know what build you want to make, then tough shit, use a character plan. there are plenty of guides and resources. in the event that you mess up on a build, respec will take you down half xp. levels don't scale evenly, they scale in tiers, so respeccing at level 30 would only lose you about 3-4 levels.  if it takes you till level 30 to figure out you need to respec.... tough shit, should have thought about that 2 million xp ago.

No personal disrespect here, but if you like mercenaries, play that game and let us play our game. CRPG is unique in that it IS unforgiving. CRPG is like dark souls, mercenaries is like elder scrolls. any game that lets you win when you want to is no fun to me, and im sure many people will agree with that. i dont want a game that holds my hand and forgives my fuck ups.

if you look through my post history, you'd find that i was among a large list of people that were in favor of allowing respecs. there is a purpose for it, but frankly, it should be used sparingly, and with caution, and the system set in place facilitates that.

No disrespect taken, but I was having a break from cRPG hence why I was playing mercenaries. For the record cRPG is my favourite module by far and always will be.

As to you arguments, while I of course see what you are getting at, I'm sure you, at least, do not agree with the total over price of training lessons as of now. I realise my opening post may have been misleading for some. So just to clarify I think Free respecs shouldn't be allowed whenever, but that said, if there was to be a 1 month cool down or at least for training lessons to brought down from inflationary rates I and many others I reckon would be happy. This is all about trying to improve what we have, this mod is still in Alpha stage for a reason, changes and improvements are meant to be added and tested (if they don't work they are taken out).

I am going to add a simple poll now to give the devs a better idea of how much support there is for thinking about some slight reforms with the current system.

Cheers
FleetFox

[Thranduil]

(click to show/hide)

OK I think its time to make my stand...

I've recently given the Mercenaries Mod a try, and my god do they have some things we can learn from. If you haven't played they have a respeccing system which only costs a little bit of gold relative to how many kills you've racked up.

Now I am making a serious plea to our Developers, please reform the horrifically punishing respeccing system we have. There are a number of reasons to help my case.

1. With free respeccing, new players will be more likely to stay in the game, because lets face it, at the beginning once you find out you messed your build up and finding the cost of respeccing puts off a lot of new comers. I know because my friends have told me.

2. A big argument from nay sayers is that free respec would make the game unbalanced. I'm afraid from my experience this is just not true (give me your arguments) a big example is the Merc mod.

3. Right now it costs around 2-3mil gold to get a full respec. This is shockingly brutal. It's been too long that we have accepted this, the price is just way too high for the average player and the frequency of training lessons means their price are completely inflated.

4. This is my humanist point, 1000's of hours have been played on your Mod devs. This mod is all about the RPG element of grinding a character you want to be, now this takes hundreds of hours, and so this is my plea for all those with busy lives with jobs, education and family. MAKE RESPEC FREE. Having respecced many times including twice at lvl 32 and never being higher (some guys are even worse than me) , the amount of time I have wasted makes me sick. And it should make you feel bad because it is a painful thing, and really puts me off the mod at times enough to stop playing for ages.

I seriously want to hear the real arguments as to why this reform shouldn't happen, and to hear directly from chadz, Harald and the rest. Also apologies for rush job I dont have much time. But this needs to be discussed properly as it effects us all and the health of our favourite game.

Kind regards
FleetFox

P.S in light of the discussion we have had, the solution of creating a dynamic system whereby level and generation are taken into account for how much players must spend for training lessons is looking very favourable (summarised well by Fin) . Please feel free to share your opinions!

• As far as new players are concerned, we have guides, character-creator apps, and STF characters (which I admit need a little more gold at the start to honestly test anything), so I think we really have that covered. AND we have retirement. It's a good incentive to finish out a build so you can retire and try something new while getting the benefits from retiring.
• I've never played Merc Mod, so I don't know how similar or dissimilar it is to cRPG. I don't think it would cause the game to be unbalanced for most, but don't forget this is cRPG. We have the best exploiters in the world. Many of whom are trolls, and some are elusive cave trolls who don't often reveal themselves.
  (click to show/hide)

  visitors can't see pics , please register or login
  
• I don't know what the starting bid usually is on Training Lessons, but I do see that the latest one is at 1.8 million after 5 bids. Regardless of what the starting bid is though, it's an auction (I've never seen it in trade, nor do I think it can be traded). So even if you make the starting bid lower/cost relative, it makes no difference. The ones who have grinded the most to super high levels, most of them have amassed a large fortune, so a couple million gold is doable for them. I don't think Training Lessons' no-penalty respec was created with the average player in mind anyway.
• The grind? It's still helluva lot faster than Elder Scrolls! And it's kinda part of what the game is. You seriously have to think about your decisions and what you want to do.

That being said, free respecs for new players (gen 1 under level 31) is not a bad idea. Beyond that, you have no one to blame but yourself. Other than that perhaps, I think the current respec system is just fine.
I just don't see the benefits.

P.S. I'm one of those who stops at lvl 31 and retires every time (at least until I'm a much higher gen), so my perspective is probably quite different to some of those who are a higher level than I currently choose to be.

[Rico]

Beyond that, you have no one to blame but yourself.

The issue is a natural change of preferences rather than misclicks, wrong planning or dumbness. After grinding a polearmer up to level 34 or 35, you might be tired of getting shot all the time and you would like to respec to hoplite.

Another reason why people want to respec is that there is no way you can test a highlevel char in advance. Take an archer as an example: You might be able to check the accuracy you will have at your end build with your STF in advance by putting everything into PD and WM and nothing into Athl, IF and PS. You might be able to test the movement speed by putting everything into Athletics and PD and nothing into WM, IF and PS. You might be able to test the melee damage by excluding the archery aspects from your testing. By adding the elements together, you will have a rough impression about how your build will be. But since you cannot test the whole thing in advance, your grinding efforts are based on a blurred image of the end build that might prove wrong.

200-300k gold for a respec would be fair. Because it would still be quite expensive for most of us but still a possibility.

I suggest the following system:

Respecs within the same class cost you 300k. A shielder who wants to stay a shielder can pay 5% exp and 200k to sacrifice some agility for additional strength, for instance.

Respecs from hybrid builds to pure builds cost you 450k. Same with respecs from pure builds to hybrid builds. A hybrid is any character with at least 50 wpf in two different categories. However, you are not allowed to respec from 2hand crossbow to 1hand this way. You must get a pure build either in 2hand or crossbow. Also, you are not allowed to convert a shielder into a polearm/2hand hybrid. It must be a shielder + something different.

Respecs within the same meta class cost you 600k. You can convert a melee char of one class into a melee char of another class. You can convert ranged into another ranged, and cavalry into another cavalry.

All other respecs cost 750k.

[Phew]

I suggest the following system:

Respecs within the same class cost you 300k. A shielder who wants to stay a shielder can pay 5% exp and 200k to sacrifice some agility for additional strength, for instance.

Respecs from hybrid builds to pure builds cost you 450k. Same with respecs from pure builds to hybrid builds. A hybrid is any character with at least 50 wpf in two different categories. However, you are not allowed to respec from 2hand crossbow to 1hand this way. You must get a pure build either in 2hand or crossbow. Also, you are not allowed to convert a shielder into a polearm/2hand hybrid. It must be a shielder + something different.

Respecs within the same meta class cost you 600k. You can convert a melee char of one class into a melee char of another class. You can convert ranged into another ranged, and cavalry into another cavalry.

All other respecs cost 750k.

This is similar to my suggestion from ~6 months ago:
http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/suggestion-offer-'mini-respecs'-in-the-store/msg889746/#msg889746

I think wholesale class changes should be prohibitively expensive for high-level players (we don't need even more agility polearmers right now), but small build tweaks should be available as a commodity in the store for 50-100k.

[BlueKnight]

CRPG is unique in that it IS unforgiving. CRPG is like dark souls, mercenaries is like elder scrolls. any game that lets you win when you want to is no fun to me, and im sure many people will agree with that. i dont want a game that holds my hand and forgives my fuck ups.

Ye because I felt that I fucked up when I leveled up my most minmaxed character with 21/21... I didn't fuck up there. I just feel that I need a change as I got bored or just want to roleplay... Please, don't treat calling for respecs like it's a support for fuckups.

lvl 30 STF is probably the closest we can get to free/cheaper/cooldown respecs but at lvl 30 you are pretty limited. Some builds just won't trigger unless you are high lvl. How about boosting STFs lvl to 32 and removing them from strat battles (dunno if it could be abused there or if they are available for strat anyway)?

The grind? It's still helluva lot faster than Elder Scrolls! And it's kinda part of what the game is. You seriously have to think about your decisions and what you want to do.

That's why I have installed some BYOG mod in Skyrim and boosted experience gain a lot. Also level uncapper so I can play different things on same character if I want to. I couldn't level alchemy in a classic way, I'm too impatient for that...

Some experience gain is required in game in order to give you the feeling that you've achieved something or to give you a goal but when it takes excessive amount of time it's called grinding and it's in the game just to do the fake-prolonging of the game as it doesn't have anything in it anymore that could make you stick to this game. Crpg is different as we all stay here for the best melee-mechanics that were ever created (still shit) but there ain't any other game that can give you this 'rush' from time to time. Combat in this game is pretty good so there is no need for excessive game-prolongers that leave you with a desire to achieve them, yet they require the resources that an average-busy person doesn't necessarily have (time, gold-> you have to invest your time to get some as well so it's all 'time' again.)

[Prpavi]

I fully support the notion to make respecs free, let's say once a month but...

you seem to forget the game is not balanced for Battle or Siege but for Strat, so I think the main argument you'll hear about the subject is it would make Strat unbalanced so I'm not entirely convinced that will ever happen

nostrat2014! 

[BlueKnight]

I fully support the notion to make respecs free, let's say once a month but...

you seem to forget the game is not balanced for Battle or Siege but for Strat, so I think the main argument you'll hear about the subject is it would make Strat unbalanced so I'm not entirely convinced that will ever happen

nostrat2014! 

I just wonder what is this most OP strat character that everyone will respec to. AFAIK you need all classes in decent ratios and with some builds variety to get optimal results. 1 respec per month wouldn't unbalance strat imho.

[Prpavi]

I just wonder what is this most OP strat character that everyone will respec to. AFAIK you need all classes in decent ratios and with some builds variety to get optimal results. 1 respec per month wouldn't unbalance strat imho.

I agree with you but not sure the main Donkeys agree with us

[FleetFox]

Yeah very true guys, the poll is showing a great majority to the proposed notion of making some changes. My only concern is I have no idea how quick and easy it will be to implement this, I assume its not that hard. Am I right @chadz @Harald @CMP?