Poll

Will Putin command further invasion of Ukraine:

He will and he should, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will, but he should not, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will not, because <random witty/boring reason>
Who is mister Putin?

Author Topic: Meanwhile in Ukraine  (Read 628522 times)

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Offline Moncho

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1530 on: March 11, 2014, 10:24:21 am »
+2
Joining the EU would most likely be a lengthy process, with a lot of change involved, like global democratic elections, changes in legislation including maybe even the Constitution, adapting to the Euro (including negotiating the initial rate exchange which may hit families hard if not done properly), etc
Depending on the state of the country, this can take some time, (in Spain's case it took 9 years, after 40 years of Dictatorship, but nowadays it will most likely be quicker), but as soon as the negotiations start, there will be help (read it as you wish, mostly money), and demands going that way. A very back and forth process, that should at the end grant you entry, increase trade to the rest of the union, allow free movement of your citizens into the rest, and other things.

Offline Prpavi

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1531 on: March 11, 2014, 11:23:38 am »
+1
Joining the EU would most likely be a lengthy process, with a lot of change involved, like global democratic elections, changes in legislation including maybe even the Constitution, adapting to the Euro (including negotiating the initial rate exchange which may hit families hard if not done properly), etc
Depending on the state of the country, this can take some time, (in Spain's case it took 9 years, after 40 years of Dictatorship, but nowadays it will most likely be quicker), but as soon as the negotiations start, there will be help (read it as you wish, mostly money), and demands going that way. A very back and forth process, that should at the end grant you entry, increase trade to the rest of the union, allow free movement of your citizens into the rest, and other things.


all proceses mentioned above take years, decades, even as a new member you are not allowed to work freely in all of the union members and are not in the Schengen zone immidiatley, so EU may be a good long term goal for Ukraine in the next 10 or 20 years, ofc if there are "higher" interestes in the country like Ukraines pielines and natural resources than the process is faster, unfortunatly that hits regular people in that process the most, I don't see a bright, prosperous future for Ukraine in the next decades even if they "win" in this conflict without a full blown civil war and start going the EU way in the next months/years.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 11:26:49 am by Prpavi »
And now he can't play because of "common sense" and he doesn't understand how this common sense works
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Offline Corwin

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1532 on: March 11, 2014, 11:26:23 am »
+5
Believe it or not, I just got opportunity through my work to apply to become one of international observers/project staff in Ukraine.
I mean, what have you got to lose? You know, you come from nothing, you're going back to nothing, what have you lost? Nothing!

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Offline serr

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1533 on: March 11, 2014, 11:28:39 am »
+1
Wow, so you will try to go to Crimea to see what's happening there and will be stopped at border? :)

Offline Corwin

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1534 on: March 11, 2014, 11:30:10 am »
+2
Nah, probably Kiev. However, I am probably gonna pass, because I just can't leave my wife alone with a baby for couple of months.
I mean, what have you got to lose? You know, you come from nothing, you're going back to nothing, what have you lost? Nothing!

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Offline AntiBlitz

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1535 on: March 11, 2014, 01:04:44 pm »
+1
We are not new member yet and there is long road to become one. As for money - sadly, we need those money to pay for old loans in the first place and to improve our industry even slightly in second. I understand what our new government are doing and I support it but many other people won't and that is the biggest danger in this situation.

what the hell are you talking about lol, the united states just gave you guys 1 billion dollars in a relief package, you guys are fucking set!

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2014/03/06/US-House-approves-Ukraine-aid-bill/UPI-97931394138793/

Offline serr

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1536 on: March 11, 2014, 01:07:24 pm »
+1
So? Where do you see contradiction with what I said?

Offline Vibe

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1537 on: March 11, 2014, 01:11:17 pm »
+10
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1538 on: March 11, 2014, 01:16:37 pm »
+1
the fact of your answer is proof that your first argument is a lie D:

Perhaps I answered because I have a clear idea of what an idiot is, unlike you.

Offline Butan

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1539 on: March 11, 2014, 02:06:13 pm »
0
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Well, that's main argument against EU in Ukraine. People are afraid that all industry in Ukraine will die because it cannot compete with EU and people will lose their jobs. What they don't understand is that it is inevitable, that our industry has to GET BETTER or DIE, that there is no way we could maintain outdated non-profitable production forever, that it would lead us to default sooner or later. Still doesn't make it any easier because their worries are quite reasonable and I'm afraid of what will happen when people will start losing their jobs in masses and communal tarrifs will grow higher.
That is what Putin is waiting for, I guess, when it happens - he will strike with propaganda first and support riots with army later, getting big part of Ukraine in addition to Crimea.


This point applies to 90% of the EU countries, including France, and the anti-EU pro-extremist political groups are growing ever powerful with the years of crisis because of that (and they grew the stronger in countries which took the hit the baddest, including old EU members).
I dont know who's the most economically stable between EU and Russia, but if its Russia and EU just crumble in the coming years, I hope your main argument to defend Ukraine poor choice wont be "Putin was waiting for it, evil mastermind!"  :P


People losing their jobs all over the old continent, life not being cheaper but also costier, and your country wants to join?
I think that between GET BETTER and DIE, everyone would choose to GET BETTER, except if it means they have to die first.
Not forgetting that, as you said, joining EU is a long process, there is a lot of deal to sign, a lot of different "level" of membership. The change of side from Russia to EU will take a very long time and its not sure you will gain more than you lost in the process. Westernizing isnt always winning.

If foreigners establish factories in your country they will just exploit the hell out of your poorest people and when you begin to riot over salaries they will move on to the next country, rinse and repeat. Enjoy the few years of employement. This, is EU, a free market political/trade zone. For reference look at the most recent countries who joined it or just re-read what Beast wrote in the 80'-90' pages. Or just read what Molly wrote himself recently.


First of all, why do you think the USSR broke apart and opened up to the West? Because they still were one of the most powerful in the World? Really? Is that the reason you believe in? I honestly do wanna know why you think the USSR broke into bits.

Please enlighten us? Does USSR broke because USA/EU too kewl kawai desu free democracy or just because they lost the cold war?


I am pretty sure that there will be quite an amount of EU money coming in soon, be it with a label saying "humanitarian help" or "economical support for a new member". Either way, there's money involved, I guess.

Love how you find normal that USA/EU kinda buy Ukraine loyalty  :lol:  Russia did it for years, lets not be naive (and thats partly why they didnt break from them till then) but you shouldnt be too happy about it, since it just mean what me and others have said all this time : Ukraine crisis is just the result of influence contest between EU (USA) - Russia, like "who throw the most money at them" competition.
How can you not see it and be happy for them receiving money of someone who supported the utter destruction of the country of Ukraine just to have control over it makes me wanna cry a little.

Offline [ptx]

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1540 on: March 11, 2014, 02:08:49 pm »
+3
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What's this? O_o

what the hell are you talking about lol, the united states just gave you guys 1 billion dollars in a relief package, you guys are fucking set!

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2014/03/06/US-House-approves-Ukraine-aid-bill/UPI-97931394138793/
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but 1 billion is not that much for a country such as Ukraine.

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Baltics, for example, have grown under EU. They experienced a period of extreme growth before the economic crisis, during which they were among the hardest hit, but, following EU and IMF advice, they recovered and are once again growing. EU has been good for Baltics.

USSR collapsed because it's economic system was shit and unsustainable. It was powerful only as a military and industrial powerhouse, due to it's immense size.

And you still don't see the reasons why most eastern European countries wish to have ties with the West, rather than Russia.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 02:19:55 pm by [ptx] »

Offline Kafein

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1541 on: March 11, 2014, 02:28:09 pm »
+3
If foreigners establish factories in your country they will just exploit the hell out of your poorest people and when you begin to riot over salaries they will move on to the next country, rinse and repeat. Enjoy the creation of a middle class.

Fixed


Please enlighten us? Does USSR broke because USA/EU too kewl kawai desu free democracy or just because they lost the cold war?

USSR broke by suffocating under the shit it was burying itself into. Nobody lost the cold war by military defeat.

Offline Butan

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1542 on: March 11, 2014, 02:35:23 pm »
+1
The creation of a middle class is often the start of null economical growth  :wink:


Nobody lost the cold war by military defeat.

One part of the "cold war" meaning is that there was no "direct military conflict", yet you forget that it can mean "undirect military conflict" (Korea-China-Taiwan-Vietnam-Cuba-Saudi Arabia-Iran-Afghanistan- only to name a few) where there was indeed victories or defeats. Also lets not forget part of why USSR broke is because they overdid themselves in "who's the master race" military/space competition: military spending was absurd in the final years of USSR existence, by both USA and USSR. If USA had broke first, what would you have argued about?


Offline [ptx]

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1543 on: March 11, 2014, 02:42:46 pm »
+4
The creation of a middle class is often the start of null economical growth  :wink:


One part of the "cold war" meaning is that there was no "direct military conflict", yet you forget that it can mean "undirect military conflict" (Korea-China-Taiwan-Vietnam-Cuba-Saudi Arabia-Iran-Afghanistan- only to name a few) where there was indeed victories or defeats. Also lets not forget part of why USSR broke is because they overdid themselves in "who's the master race" military/space competition: military spending was absurd in the final years of USSR existence, by both USA and USSR. If USA had broke first, what would you have argued about?
Cold War proxy-conflicts had little influence on the outcome. If anything, the few victories that USSR did get, actually drove it deeper into the shithole, as those countries, that were now under it's influence, had even worse economies and thus had to be artificially sustained by USSR, to create the illusion of a "socialist paradise".
USA also had enormous military spending, and they also took part in the Space Race, yet they did not collapse as a result.
USSR having a powerful economy was never anything more than a bluff.

Offline Kafein

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1544 on: March 11, 2014, 02:47:00 pm »
+1
The creation of a middle class is often the start of null economical growth  :wink:

First, where does that come from ?
Second, I care more about standard of living than economic growth.

One part of the "cold war" meaning is that there was no "direct military conflict", yet you forget that it can mean "undirect military conflict" (Korea-China-Taiwan-Vietnam-Cuba-Saudi Arabia-Iran-Afghanistan- only to name a few) where there was indeed victories or defeats. Also lets not forget part of why USSR broke is because they overdid themselves in "who's the master race" military/space competition: military spending was absurd in the final years of USSR existence, by both USA and USSR. If USA had broke first, what would you have argued about?

Are you suggesting that the USSR lost the cold war because the western side won some of the indirect conflicts ? Because I don't really see the link here. Those conflicts were usually only relevant to the ideologic battle, with little strategic interest besides "containment". Also the US was far from being on the brink of collapse like the USSR was. Even today they still manage to support absurd military spending.