Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Xant]

I have read it. What about it? Once again, it does not say that any of those countries would help in the case of an invasion. Russia has not threatened Ukraine with nuclear weapons, or used nuclear weapons against Ukraine. Therefore, that agreement never comes into play.

[Strudog]

to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.

[Xant]

Do you understand what "respect" means? The assurances say that those countries assure to respect said things, not that they expect anyone else to respect them as well.

[Strudog]

Do you understand what "respect" means? The assurances say that those countries assure to respect said things, not that they expect anyone else to respect them as well.

that they have to 'respect', this can be translated in a number of ways, it depends how you look at it, like all treaties that are signed, there is always a problem with the wording.

i may also bring your attention to this:

reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine

[Butan]

This text is low-priority when you have Russia rolling.
If every nations had honor and acted on pieces of paper 100% of the time we would have wars at each corners, but afaik diplomacy is only a game of thrones where you base your legitimacy on said papers (fabricated or not) but you deny them when it fits your agenda.

[Xant]

that they have to 'respect', this can be translated in a number of ways, it depends how you look at it, like all treaties that are signed, there is always a problem with the wording.

i may also bring your attention to this:

No, it cannot be translated in a number of ways. It can only be translated in one way.

The fact is this: nobody is obligated to help Ukraine. Nobody.

Now, Russia has broken their "assurance" in spirit (but they will have some excuse for why they didn't break the letter of it). But nowhere in the assurance is there another assurance that the others will take action against another country breaking their word.

It would be a different situation if the U.S and others had promised to help Ukraine in the event of an invasion. But they did not. Ukraine's SOL.

This text is low-priority when you have Russia rolling.
If every nations had honor and acted on pieces of paper 100% of the time we would have wars at each corners, but afaik diplomacy is only a game of thrones where you base your legitimity on said papers (fabricated or not) but you deny them when it fits your agenda.

Yes, agreements are broken constantly -- the US has started several illegal wars, too, yet the rest of the world hasn't attacked it yet...

[Strudog]

No, it cannot be translated in a number of ways. It can only be translated in one way.

The fact is this: nobody is obligated to help Ukraine. Nobody.

Now, Russia has broken their "assurance" in spirit (but they will have some excuse for why they didn't break the letter of it). But nowhere in the assurance is there another assurance that the others will take action against another country breaking their word.

It would be a different situation if the U.S and others had promised to help Ukraine in the event of an invasion. But they did not. Ukraine's SOL.

i was arguing with your point that the only way America would help Ukraine would be through economic difficulties where it saids directly in the Budapest Memorandum that all parties are obliged (they don't have to if they don't want to) to help Ukraine if its territory or political independence was threatened.

Im not arguing whether the US will go to war over this, because its obvious it will never come to that, i'm just merely pointing out that there are other ways apart from economic security that the US could use as an excuse IF they went to war.

[Falka]

Im not arguing whether the US will go to war over this, because its obvious it will never come to that

Are you sure? Humans stupidity has no end, so I wouldn't bet any money on it

[Strudog]

Are you sure? Humans stupidity has no end, so I wouldn't bet any money on it

Human stupidity didn't take control during the cold war, why should it happen now?

Neither side wants a war, Putin knows this, thus he can push the boundaries and that is exactly what he is doing now, same as the Cold War, each side will push each other to the limit, but MAD takes over in the end.

[Xant]

i was arguing with your point that the only way America would help Ukraine would be through economic difficulties where it saids directly in the Budapest Memorandum that all parties are obliged (they don't have to if they don't want to) to help Ukraine if its territory or political independence was threatened.

Im not arguing whether the US will go to war over this, because its obvious it will never come to that, i'm just merely pointing out that there are other ways apart from economic security that the US could use as an excuse IF they went to war.

What? I have never said anything even remotely similar to "the only way America would help Ukraine would be through economic difficulties." And none of the parties are to help Ukraine if its territory or political independence are threatened. The assurances never assure that.

[Butan]

Why would not going to war be smarter than going to war? Notwithstanding our own fear of death and destruction, there is no superior motive to peace than there is to war.

You say that there is a text to protect Ukraine sovereignty and that it SHOULD mean that Europe/USA protect Ukraine against Russia invasion, and now you say that it would be stupid to help them by the only mean possible when people use the sword rather than the pen?


Remind me never to vote for you for presidence of any countries 

[Strudog]

Why would not going to war be smarter than going to war? Notwithstanding our own fear of death and destruction, there is no superior motive to peace than there is to war.

You say that there is a text to protect Ukraine sovereignty and that it SHOULD mean that Europe/USA protect Ukraine against Russia invasion, and now you say that it would be stupid to help them by the only mean possible when people use the sword rather than the pen?


Remind me never to vote for you for presidence of any countries 

If it was directed at me, i was saying theoretically that military intervention or a war would be possible because Russia, USA and the UK all signed the Hungarian Memorandum , but in my own opinion i do not believe this is likely due to outside factors, such as NATO, UN, MAD, etc.. and as pointed out t is very much a wish washy treaty.

[Xant]

Budapest Memorandum, once again, does not say anything about military intervention as long as nuclear weapons do not come into play.

[Thomek]

Anyone have opinions or information on how strong separatist feelings are in Crimea? To me this seems a lot like South Ossetia. Supporting small separatist governements, intervening to preserve "Peace". Just that in this case it seems there is zero need of protection in the first place..

[Osiris]

Who knows Russia probably has more "cause" for military intervention in the Crimea than the USA ever had in the middle east so they don't really have a moral high ground to stand on.

From sky news
http://news.sky.com/story/1219043/russia-shows-its-muscle-as-crimea-breaks-away

Whatever the government in Ukraine says or does, events on the ground suggest that Crimea has already for all intents and purposes broken away; certainly Kiev's orders no longer stretch as far as this region.

Unidentified gunmen have taken over the parliament and the region's main airports in the space of 24 hours.

They heavily suggest that these are in fact Russian military but atm there is no proof

Also from sky news
http://news.sky.com/story/1215537/ukraine-protesters-in-control-of-kiev

Protesters have claimed full control over the city of Kiev after a deal was signed to end a three-month political crisis in Ukraine.
Police have abandoned posts around the capital and protesters seized the presidential office.

The interior ministry said on Saturday it was in favour of "speedy change", and urged the people to unite to ensure security and the creation of an "independent, democratic and just European country".

But regional legislators in eastern Ukraine have questioned the legitimacy and authority of decisions made by the national parliament.

So pro west side uses weapons and violence to seize control and force the president to flee = Hooray glorious revolution USA, Europe etc claps.
Pro Russian side uses weapons and seizes control of Airports etc and doesn't recognize the new govt = Boo evil Russians how dare they.