Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Xant]

It's a hardball world, son. We've gotta keep our heads until this peace craze blows over.

[Vovka]

Oh Butan, my French friend, there are some obvious things to me and other people that are not really obvious to foreigners. One obvious thing is that Russians made an ultimatum to Crimean military forces of Ukraine(don't know if bluffing once again or not): To drop all weapons and desert due to 5 a.m. or they will make them do this with force. Crimea must be going under water already because of steel balls of Ukrainian military forces there surrounded by thousands of Russians. Also I think that it's a kind of betrayal from Kiev because they let Russians make such things real. Russians came there to make "peace" and save other Russians. Guess whom are they threatening there? Correct, Russians. Because most of those military forces of Ukraine in Crimea are Russians and they even speak Russian during military service.

so 5 am passed, Ukraine still exist? 

By the way look at this map and guess what part of Ukraine would under the protectorate of Russia after the Crimea? ))

(click to show/hide)

http://www.naftogaz.com/files/Zvity/ZminaRezimGTS_31_12_2008.jpg
i bet it will be pink area with a beautiful pipe on it 

[Tovi]

As long war will be bad for business you don't have to worry.
 Is there any oil in Ukraine ? No. So Us army will stay at home.

[Xant]

As long war will be bad for business you don't have to worry.
 Is there any oil in Ukraine ? No. So Us army will stay at home.

Except it's not the oil where the big money has been in the past wars for the US. It's the military industry. And war is always good for it.

[DaveUKR]

so 5 am passed, Ukraine still exist? 

By the way look at this map and guess what part of Ukraine would under the protectorate of Russia after the Crimea? ))

(click to show/hide)

http://www.naftogaz.com/files/Zvity/ZminaRezimGTS_31_12_2008.jpg
i bet it will be pink area with a beautiful pipe on it 

As far as I know Putin ordered his west district of army to go back to military bases this night. So I guess UN meeting made its job. To sum up, first I thought that Putin had a great plan (military, diplomacy and tactic wise), but now I see that it failed at mostly everything and made Russia looking stupid. So now if Russia will not proceed with the war - they will lose everything.

[Panos_]

Now you sound like Panos, ancestors of my ancestors did that yadda yadda. Who cares, you werent there. Therefore you do not know how it happened exactly.

What people like you can`t understand, is that the ancestors of a country fought for one thing, FREEDOM, either yours or theirs.

So when I mention my ancestors, I do it because I take pride of what they did , because they did it for me, they gave their life away for freedom.

I maybe wasnt there, but surely affected my entire life. I don`t expect you to understand this, but thats ok, if war happens again in Serbia, you can meet up with Kafein and Prpavi and watch anime all day long.

I`d still give my life for my country 24/7/365, not for the government, but for my fellow Greeks.

[Corwin]

As far as I know Putin ordered his west district of army to go back to military bases this night. So I guess UN meeting made its job. To sum up, first I thought that Putin had a great plan (military, diplomacy and tactic wise), but now I see that it failed at mostly everything and made Russia looking stupid. So now if Russia will not proceed with the war - they will lose everything.

I hope it works out like that, but for the moment way too optimistic.

[Gnjus]

but thats ok, if war happens again in Serbia, you can meet up with Kafein and Prpavi and watch anime all day long.

Don't know why but I rofled at this so hard, I think I subconsciously imagined it happening. 

[serr]

So now if Russia will not proceed with the war - they will lose everything.

I strongly disagree with that. They still hold Crimea and there will be referendum, there's nothing Ukraine can do about it at the moment. On other hand if Russia will proceed with the war - while it will be disaster for Ukraine, Russia will lose really a lot.

[Prpavi]

if war happens again in Serbia, you can meet up with Kafein and Prpavi and watch anime all day long.

the war didn't happen in Serbia but Croatia and Bosnia, Serbs invaded Croatia and Serbs and Croats invaded Bosnia afterwards. There was no war on Serbian territory.

I know first hand a bunch of those "freedom fighter" that fought in the war. It ain't that glamurous as you imagine.

the fact that I have lived through a disgusting war that destroyed mine and the countries in my neghborhjood and set us back 20/30 years behind rest of Europe and the fact it poisoned human relationships in this region for the next 100 years makes me feel the way I feel today.

but you go on acting like a big boi, I just wish you never witness anything like that ever. I know the crysis in Greece must be awfull but trust me it's nothing compared to an ethnic slaughter, which you indirectly approve of (removig of the immigrants by any means and blaming them for every wrong in Greece)

[DaveUKR]

I strongly disagree with that. They still hold Crimea and there will be referendum, there's nothing Ukraine can do about it at the moment. On other hand if Russia will proceed with the war - while it will be disaster for Ukraine, Russia will lose really a lot.

Referendum that will not be accepted by anyone. It's already announced that referendum is against the law. This referendum will change nothing. It's the same as announcement of Yanukovich asking Russian Forces to help him in Ukraine: without Parliament's decision it's nothing. Though I agree about war being a complete disaster for both countries. By saying "lose everything" I meant that Russia will lose everything in Ukraine.

[Molly]

Referendum that will not be accepted by anyone. It's already announced that referendum is against the law. This referendum will change nothing. It's the same as announcement of Yanukovich asking Russian Forces to help him in Ukraine: without Parliament's decision it's nothing. Though I agree about war being a complete disaster for both countries. By saying "lose everything" I meant that Russia will lose everything in Ukraine.

Well, how can you say it's illegitimate when the whole Maydan-business had been against the law too. How can you deny them their revolution?
I am not opting for or against the referendum. I feel rather neutral when it comes to that. It just seems wrong to say "Maydan was okay cuz REVOLUTION!" and then say "Having a voting process about whether to stay or leave the Ukraine is illegal."

Oh well... I dunno... guess that's the actual issue with revolutions: When does it stop?
Group A starts a revolution and succeeds. Group A then starts the democratic process. Group B sees the process and doesn't like its probable outcome. Group B starts a revolution before Group A even finished theirs --> total chaos breaks lose.
That's how it happened in Egypt and Tunesia, isn't it?

[Prpavi]

Well, how can you say it's illegitimate when the whole Maydan-business had been against the law too. How can you deny them their revolution?
I am not opting for or against the referendum. I feel rather neutral when it comes to that. It just seems wrong to say "Maydan was okay cuz REVOLUTION!" and then say "Having a voting process about whether to stay or leave the Ukraine is illegal."

Oh well... I dunno... guess that's the actual issue with revolutions: When does it stop?
Group A starts a revolution and succeeds. Group A then starts the democratic process. Group B sees the process and doesn't like its probable outcome. Group B starts a revolution before Group A even finished theirs --> total chaos breaks lose.
That's how it happened in Egypt and Tunesia, isn't it?

Divide and conquer the oldest tactic in the world and it still works.

[DaveUKR]

Well, how can you say it's illegitimate when the whole Maydan-business had been against the law too. How can you deny them their revolution?
I am not opting for or against the referendum. I feel rather neutral when it comes to that. It just seems wrong to say "Maydan was okay cuz REVOLUTION!" and then say "Having a voting process about whether to stay or leave the Ukraine is illegal."

Oh well... I dunno... guess that's the actual issue with revolutions: When does it stop?
Group A starts a revolution and succeeds. Group A then starts the democratic process. Group B sees the process and doesn't like its probable outcome. Group B starts a revolution before Group A even finished theirs --> total chaos breaks lose.
That's how it happened in Egypt and Tunesia, isn't it?

What did they actually do in Maydan? I completely agree that the Maydan fights were illegal. Ok, but what's illegitimate in current Ukrainian government? The Parliament is absolutely the same, it was elected in 2012. I can hardly call it a revolution, people got rid of a bandit President. New President will be elected in the end of May.

[Kuujis]

Referendum that will not be accepted by anyone. It's already announced that referendum is against the law. This referendum will change nothing. It's the same as announcement of Yanukovich asking Russian Forces to help him in Ukraine: without Parliament's decision it's nothing. Though I agree about war being a complete disaster for both countries. By saying "lose everything" I meant that Russia will lose everything in Ukraine.

Actually - I think they already did loose their "friendly" nation status. Apart from relative minority of die-hard-russian-nationalists - I understand that MOST Ukranians do not appreciate their "friends" back stabing them during their hardest hour. At least everyone is wearing their true faces now...

The most fucked-up thing is, that without escalating the armed conflict and inviting bloodshed - there is quite little Ukraine or anyone else can do to "on site" if one does not get his boots in the dirt. And I don't see that happening.

Dave - is a choice "Crimea or EU/Westernization" a real one or just a child of my brainwashed mind? Where would you stand if such a choice was presented?