Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Oberyn]

Yes, the world totally approved of Iraq. Even the US media was just euphoric with joy throughout the entire thing. Never a word of criticism, because journalists would mysteriously end up dead. All the NATO puppets falling in line, in service of their great Overlord, the NWO controlled, judaic-masonic fascist USA. George Bush portrayed as a messianic, strong, unfallible leader by whole of USA. Black boots goosestepping on brown necks, forevah. /s

I'm not sure why you keep referencing me by the way, I've been out of this thread for a while. All I had to say I have said. There is nothing more to comment on. You know what I think about your idiotic equivocating between Russia and the "West". You think you're so enlightened, avoiding binary black and white thinking, but you replace it by ONE shade of gray. The ultimate simplistic dumbing down of all geopolitics, absolute relativism. No good or bad outcomes, it's all the same anyways! Or at least that's the reasoning you hide behind, although I suspect you are mostly sympathetic to one side of this event.
I have yet to find out why exactly. Tovi is easy, he's just one of the many lower IQ casualties of conspiracy websites that proliferate everywhere on the web. The whole nothing is ever a spontaneous event but is always carefully orchestrated by shadowy cabals that have godlike powers of control and persuasion, just classic paranoid delusions. But you, do you have some specific knowledge about the post-soviet east? Why are you talking down to people like Thomek, who've actually experienced the difference? Have you ever even traveled outside of France?

[Butan]

It's OK to kill homosexuals, but they have what they call "man love thursdays" when it's okay to bone your buddy.

Wasnt the first part directed at Russia?    if not then ignore my remark 

[Xant]

Huh? Russia doesn't use Sharia law as far as I know?

[Leshma]

Yes, the world totally approved of Iraq. Even the US media was just euphoric with joy throughout the entire thing. Never a word of criticism, because journalists would mysteriously end up dead. All the NATO puppets falling in line, in service of their great Overlord, the NWO controlled, judaic-masonic fascist USA. George Bush portrayed as a messianic, strong, unfallible leader by whole of USA. Black boots goosestepping on brown necks, forevah. /s

Iraqi children are so grateful for your words of criticism and support.

[Oberyn]

Iraqi children are so grateful for your words of criticism and support.

I was adressing Butan's claim that the entire world, including even most of NATO, supported the war on Iraq. Anyone with a pulse back then knows this is frankly bullshit. It's about the arguement he made, I wasn't trying to pretend mere disagreement and criticism could in any way affect the US's decision, any more than it will affect Russia this time around. But I guess you wanted to get a completely unrelated dig in at me, because you're an idiot. I leave the pretending I'm sort of victimized martyr making the world a better place merely by existing thing up to you. Nice projection skills, though. I'm sure you picked up a weapon and went to defend the poor Iraqi children firsthand, because your convictions are true and pure  .

[Oberyn]

Huh? Russia doesn't use Sharia law as far as I know?

When you look at the results of the invasion of Iraq geopolitically the big winners end up being Iran. So even if some sort of neo-con culture war ala Brezinski was it's ultimate purpose, it failed miserably. It removed the stranglehold on power of the minority sunni, directly leading to the civil war that caused the vast majority of the deaths in Iraq. Debaathification was imo the worst mistake. Basically disenfranchising all the highly placed military and governmental elite of the old government, who, given the whole tribal/family way the entire country was run, had a lot of influence that went beyond mere institutionalized authority. Blood ties were paramount, and the governmental structure was merely overlayed over these much older networks of tribal alliances and rivalries. Stripping them of their titles given to them by Saddam in no way removed any of that power. That, along with the sudden freeing up of the shiites from the yoke indirectly lead to more civilian deaths than any direct action by the US military. Anyways, despite a recent long and bloody war in which they were prominent military fodder (Iraq-Iran war), a lot of the shiite tribes and political organizations ended up with very close relationships to Iran, for very obvious cultural reasons.

[Molly]

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[Xant]

When you look at the results of the invasion of Iraq geopolitically the big winners end up being Iran. So even if some sort of neo-con culture war ala Brezinski was it's ultimate purpose, it failed miserably. It removed the stranglehold on power of the minority sunni, directly leading to the civil war that caused the vast majority of the deaths in Iraq. Debaathification was imo the worst mistake. Basically disenfranchising all the highly placed military and governmental elite of the old government, who, given the whole tribal/family way the entire country was run, had a lot of influence that went beyond mere institutionalized authority. Blood ties were paramount, and the governmental structure was merely overlayed over these much older networks of tribal alliances and rivalries. Stripping them of their titles given to them by Saddam in no way removed any of that power. That, along with the sudden freeing up of the shiites from the yoke indirectly lead to more civilian deaths than any direct action by the US military. Anyways, despite a recent long and bloody war in which they were prominent military fodder (Iraq-Iran war), a lot of the shiite tribes and political organizations ended up with very close relationships to Iran, for very obvious cultural reasons.

Well, obviously Iraq ended up being a wash for USA. I'm not saying the invasion was great or necessary, just that I don't really care either way, and that the two situations (Iraq/Astan and Crimea) are not comparable, and it makes no sense to say "Well Russia can do this because USA did that." The way USA fights wars nowadays isn't really working, either. Because neither of those countries posed a true threat to Americans at home, the military was fighting with both hands tied behind their back and blind-folded. They were forced to do the whole kinder-gentler-war thing (http://www.theloudtalker.com/?p=62 for one of the ridiculous examples) because back home nobody would've accepted the sort of warfare they'd have to do to actually "win." And I don't think we will see anything like that, not before there is a war that actually has to be won instead of just being a show of power.

[Butan]

I'm not sure why you keep referencing me by the way, I've been out of this thread for a while.All I had to say I have said. There is nothing more to comment on.

You made a great impression on me Oberyn    I'm happy you said all you had to say because it was growing very repetitive. Godwin point godwin point godwin point, and if you read the article Thomek used its very obvious the man who wrote it completely agree with you, thus why I referenced you. I really mean it, have you read the linked text? If it doesnt blow your mind, nothing will.

The main problem I see in your logic is that you deny me comparing points between modern Russia and modern USA imperialism, but you think its obvious comparing points between modern Russia and the Third Reich


Comparing Iraq/Crimea is all nice and all, and I dont want to stop you debating on the subject, but on the "global population approval", you cant say that except France (which we are both citizen of) and some isolated minor power, anyone tried hard at discrediting Iraq war on terrorism, except some shady cable TV show and some very rare and brave journalists who did the same job as VICE NEWS in Crimea, and were mostly ridiculed in mainstream USA/EU media during the conflict. (seeing any similiraties yet again?)

Its all nice and all to say, 10 years after, that everyone knows Iraq war was bullshit, but when we were in the middle of it, dont you dare tell me it wasnt globally accepted as a "just war" or you are lying to yourself pretty bad.

At the moment we are still in the middle of Ukraine crisis, and Russia intervention is far from being globally accepted as a "just intervention" from the USA/EU block, because you know what? Double standards.

[Oberyn]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/thanks-for-being-so-cool-about-everything,35584/?ref=auto

[Oberyn]

you cant say that except France (which we are both citizen of) and some isolated minor power, anyone tried hard at discrediting Iraq war on terrorism

...ok, I'm just gonna ask, how old were you during the Iraq invasion?

[Xant]

and some very rare and brave journalists who did the same job as VICE NEWS in Crimea

Oh god. Yeah, what with U.S assassinating journalists left, right and center. Takes some real bravery.

At the moment we are still in the middle of Ukraine crisis, and Russia intervention is far from being globally accepted as a "just intervention" from the USA/EU block, because you know what? Double standards.

Maybe because it isn't an intervention? What are they intervening in? The mass murders the rest of Ukrainians were doing there? Nothing to do with double standards.

[Butan]

...ok, I'm just gonna ask, how old were you during the Iraq invasion?

Too young to say the truth? I was born in 1988. Fore more details send me a friendly PM 

Oh god. Yeah, what with U.S assassinating journalists left, right and center. Takes some real bravery.
Maybe because it isn't an intervention? What are they intervening in? The mass murders the rest of Ukrainians were doing there? Nothing to do with double standards.

Takes much high education to mislead oneself that much.

Even without killing anti-iraqi war journalists, their opinions can still be conveniently ignored by mass counter-propaganda, which was what happened.

Call it invasion or something else, thats the same thing. If you wish to do your famous metaphysical digression on correct wording, talk to the hand.

[Molly]

[...]you cant say that except France (which we are both citizen of) and some isolated minor power, anyone tried hard at discrediting Iraq war on terrorism[...]

Yeah... guess Germany and their general "No" to any involvement in that war goes under "isolated minor power", huh?

[[ptx]]

IIRC, of major powers, only UK supported Iraq invasion, at the cost of significant public backlash at their government?