Author Topic: Thranduil's DTV maps. Feedback Thread. (Currently on map-making hiatus) (Read 13880 times)

Thranduil · « **on:** November 25, 2013, 09:28:35 pm »

Hello all. I have been hearing that, while there is a relative joy that there are new DTV maps, not everyone is happy with some of them or the old ones. What I want to know is, what do you want in a DTV map? Try and be specific if you can. Make references to other maps if there is something you like there. Screenshots help too.

I'll be playing DTV as much as I can to try to grasp the issues people are having.

Give me some specific ideas, and I'll make a poll to see what people want.

*Edit* - Added poll. I think from the suggestions, the poll is probably moot, but I'm curious to see what people think.

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I figured it was past time I should put links to the maps in this thread.

Celtic Ruins: http://www.nexusmods.com/mbwarband/mods/5865

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City Revolt: http://www.nexusmods.com/mountandblade/mods/5899

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Desert Ruins: http://www.nexusmods.com/mbwarband/mods/5863

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Grey Havens: http://www.nexusmods.com/mbwarband/mods/5877/?

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Lichens Island: http://www.nexusmods.com/mbwarband/mods/5869

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Mein Bridge: http://www.nexusmods.com/mountandblade/mods/5900

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Motte & Bailey: http://www.nexusmods.com/mountandblade/mods/5901

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Viking Village: http://www.nexusmods.com/mountandblade/mods/5895

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Uther Pendragon · « **Reply #1 on:** November 26, 2013, 07:48:47 pm »

http://forum.melee.org/scene-editing/(dtv)-sea-raid-new-update-15-06/
Many, many variations of this.
- Many spawnpoints for bots, from few directions
- Relatively few invisible walls and barriers, some open terrain for more than 1-2 shieldwalls or other tactics
- Maybe some ballistae here and there

Thranduil · « **Reply #2 on:** November 27, 2013, 05:44:00 am »

Alright then, here is my first attempt. Really, this one is just an old map of mine that I've re-purposed for DTV. Barriers are minimal - they only exist where there is a line of trash in your way. There are none inside the village walls. There are 4 ballistas (2 of which can cover the Viscount), and 2 directions from which bots may come from. Shield walls will work in a few spots, but bots can get around, so there ought to be enough work to do even for those usually stuck waiting for the few runners to sneak through.

The red lines are barriers. My color coding the text got messed up there, so it's hard to read. There are barriers hopefully preventing bots from getting stuck under the larger bridge.
Pics:

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What do you think?

Quote from: Uther Pendragon on November 26, 2013, 07:48:47 pm

http://forum.melee.org/scene-editing/(dtv)-sea-raid-new-update-15-06/
Many, many variations of this.
- Many spawnpoints for bots, from few directions
- Relatively few invisible walls and barriers, some open terrain for more than 1-2 shieldwalls or other tactics
- Maybe some ballistae here and there

Thanks for the detailed input!

Jeade · « **Reply #3 on:** November 27, 2013, 11:01:39 am »

Quote from: Thranduil on November 27, 2013, 05:44:00 am

Alright then, here is my first attempt.

I like it! However, I do feel this map in particular, due to the size and two bot spawns, would have the potential to easily kill NA7 if it were to have a population of less than 20.

I do like the idea of elevation for ranged and I do like the idea of more castle-like maps.
I think Fips mentioned he wanted to see more than just villages in a field. I'd agree!

Fips · « **Reply #4 on:** November 27, 2013, 12:15:07 pm »

Remember that the AI is completely retarded and players will try to exploit every single spot they can find.

Any roof must be easily accessible for the AI. For example, the last Screenshot: This house prop has no entrance below the right ballista, so players get up there and lure the bots to the house and then melee and ranged can easily pick them off like it has been done on Rizi for example. A Ladder would solve this.

Anyway, i can't really judge it only on the screenshots, i need the sco. Just go over every tiny little spot where it could be possible that players lure the bots without taking any kind of risk/damage and make sure you edit it accordingly, because as sad as it is, the players will exploit your map as much as possible =/

I'm gonna start doing the guide for dtv-maps today, so you see what i, as a scene manager, need for dtv-maps.

karasu · « **Reply #5 on:** November 27, 2013, 04:57:18 pm »

Some points I find important in current DTV:

Dynamic props and entry points (ozin's map is a very good example, sea raid)
Ballistas (they give a chance to be helpful even to low level chars)
Enough space for melee chars to fight (S abuse without having the constant fear of being shot in the back by team mate due to thin areas)
Shield Wall incentive
High ground places for ranged, while still being accessible by bots (p.e. Arena dtv map)

Thranduil · « **Reply #6 on:** November 27, 2013, 10:21:59 pm »

Thanks for all the input and suggestions! Fips, I'm looking forward to your tutorial! I'll go back and tweak the map a bit more, then submit it.

*Edit*
I've narrowed one of the entryways to the village, so instead of 10 shields, it should only take 5 for a functional shield wall. This should help with lower population on NA7.

(click to show/hide)

Sacks and barrels are at a height where archers can shoot over them, added a ladder to reach the ballista. I'll upload the .sco and scenes.txt files today. I'd try testing things by hosting, but every time I try, the game crashes "RGL error: op code 16". Just started doing that yesterday, so I copied the updated cRPG folder, but it still does it.

Thranduil · « **Reply #7 on:** November 29, 2013, 04:48:46 am »

Alright Fips, I just submitted it. Lemme know if I screwed anything up.

Hopefully the AI mesh isn't too bad.

Patoson · « **Reply #8 on:** November 30, 2013, 09:56:39 pm »

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Oops! I'm sorry. I completely misunderstood the topic of the thread. :(

Thranduil · « **Reply #9 on:** December 01, 2013, 01:35:45 am »

Quote from: Patoson on November 30, 2013, 09:56:39 pm

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On this map, the viscount spawns inside the wall sometimes and bots can't reach him.

And the map with the mountain road usually has the last bot stuck on the mountain until an archer shoots it or luckily it decides to come down after a while.
Oops! I'm sorry. I completely misunderstood the topic of the thread. :(

Don't place spawns too close to walls and stuff - check. :)

Gmnotutoo · « **Reply #10 on:** December 01, 2013, 06:12:49 am »

Ladders.

Sir_Hans · « **Reply #11 on:** December 04, 2013, 03:28:22 am »

Ballista's I like... Gates & Gatehouses not so much (lots of players misuse and open at the wrong time which screws over the entire team).

Ladders on levels like that one helms deep one w/ the walls was a good attempt, but It doesn't work well with cavalry spawn.. players generally have to go down at bottom of ladders and clean up which kind of defeats the purpose.

Narrow chokes for shield walls like in blank map 11 are fun, while also being frustrating when players won't tighten the shield wall to prevent leaks... or when someone leaves shieldwall midfight, or when people behind the shield wall try to overhead through gaps they don't have room for and hit players in the back... But I'd say keep the shield wall maps, its the most teamwork oriented dtv maps I've seen yet.

While I don't play archer, I feel that a lot of maps are in need of archer vantage points. When there is a lack of archer vantage points they tend to just mill around behind the shield wall, and are next to useless when a big rush comes and they don't get a lot of shots off before entering melee.

The dual spawns or multiple spawning areas are nice too, the only dislike I have is when there are few people playing dtv and it makes the rounds a little longer and harder (giggidy) than necessary. It would be nice to see a map that spawned the enemies one after the other instead of all at once... so they attack in like a steady of only a few at a time instead of one large clusterfuck.

An equipment chest for throwers to re-up once they've thrown all their weapons would be nice too. I only played a thrower for a little bit on DTV but even with +3 Javelins I felt throwers had limited efficiency compared to other classes.

And a map which spawned riderless (neutral) horses near the players at the same time as when enemy spawns could be fun/interesting as well. Give cav a little more usefulness in Dtv.

I feel like there is a lack of any good "bridge" type maps currently... A map where players attempt to hold a bridge from the enemy onslaught would be fun again...

Also when it comes to invisible walls... there really needs to be some kind of prop or visible reason that there is a wall there... I've heard a few mapmakers say they don't want to add fences or static terrain where they put invisible walls because it would make their maps look ugly. Well I think that is just retarded. Nobody plays DTV maps because they are pretty. Either add a fence or something where you put invisible walls so it makes sense, or don't add them at all. Invisible collision is reported as bugs by a QA team and then fixed by developers in pretty much all normal games... I see no reason to add this kind of lazy reach around to dtv. (I would have much rather just seen horse archers taken out of ai spawns... that way we could still have large/open DTV maps... as well as the small ones.)

Yazid · « **Reply #12 on:** December 04, 2013, 08:11:10 am »

I find that DTV gets very repetitive and heavily relies on shield-walls, whatever we can do to keep this reliance at a minimum would be a step in the right direction...

My ideal DTV would be closer to the Arabian Village one, where most people had to fight in the open ground,

It would also be more interesting if mobs spawned from 10 directions, but in low numbers.

It's not very carebear, but the idea is to prevent AFKing and people from getting bored with shieldwalls.

I can also agree with a BRIDGE MAP, a bit like in RTW, how fun would it be to try and hold a bridge, while friendly cavalry charges in from behind and knocks some bots down, with bodies falling left and right.

Thranduil · « **Reply #13 on:** December 06, 2013, 06:42:43 am »

No name or anything yet. Just a single picture and an explanation of how I think the map would work.

(click to show/hide)

So, this map would be a shield wall clusterfuck at one end, just like many others, but from the opposite direction, it's open. For those who might not know, there are only 5 entry points that can be placed for bots in DTV (correct me if I am wrong. I would LOVE to have more.

), so I assume that just placing 1 in the field will give some bots to fight (though not too many) for those not participating in the usual shield wall. Could even get cav in on the action!

At the same time, when the server is low, you may still have enough for the shield wall, but you won't be overrun from behind for lack of players. Now since I can't have bots and players going EVERYWHERE on the map, there are a couple of barriers outside the city walls. Oh, and one equipment chest for when you run out of arrows, throwing weapons, or your shield breaks (hate it when that happens).

Right now, it's not TOO empty, but it's not full of random junk like a normal town map, but since you'll spend most of your time in one area, I'm not too keen to add extra stuff that'll reduce fps. I should probably add a few trees and bushes though... I'll take more screenshots later. I'm tired.

...Aaaanndd ..... I'm starting to spam the smilies.

***EDIT***

New Pics and a name:
City Revolt

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I also added a path to each bot spawn via two sally doors in case any bots get stuck, and you need to kill them, but don't want to get stuck out there and die for killing one rogue bot.

Thranduil · « **Reply #14 on:** December 06, 2013, 10:41:29 pm »

A bridge map will be the next thing I try.

Poll

What do you want in your DTV map?

Author Topic: Thranduil's DTV maps. Feedback Thread. (Currently on map-making hiatus) (Read 13880 times)

Thranduil

Thranduil's DTV maps. Feedback Thread. (Currently on map-making hiatus)

Uther Pendragon

Re: What do you want in your DTV map? Taking suggestions/requests.

Thranduil

First DTV map

Jeade

Re: What do you want in your DTV map? Taking suggestions/requests.

Fips

Re: What do you want in your DTV map? Taking suggestions/requests.

karasu

Re: What do you want in your DTV map? Taking suggestions/requests.

Thranduil

Re: What do you want in your DTV map? Taking suggestions/requests.

Thranduil

Re: What do you want in your DTV map? Taking suggestions/requests.

Patoson

Re: What do you want in your DTV map? Taking suggestions/requests.

Thranduil

Re: What do you want in your DTV map? Taking suggestions/requests.

Gmnotutoo

Re: What do you want in your DTV map? Taking suggestions/requests.

Sir_Hans

Re: What do you want in your DTV map? Taking suggestions/requests.

Yazid

Re: What do you want in your DTV map? Taking suggestions/requests.

Thranduil

Second DTV Map... well, sorta... well, it is, but it isn't done...

Thranduil

Re: What do you want in your DTV map? Taking suggestions/requests.