Remove shield skill from shields

[Penitent]

What the....?

Practice shields stop arrows just fine.  Usually a few.

Even just holding a practice shield will make most archers aim at someone else.

No need to change shield requirements.  You just aren't using your shield right.
You have to put it in front of your body, towards the archer.

[Berserkadin]

Well, another, much simpler idea, would be to add a big shield, with low req, that is extremely slow, but got good hp/armor. Only for blocking ranged, not to be used in melee.

[Penitent]

Well, another, much simpler idea, would be to add a big shield, with low req, that is extremely slow, but got good hp/armor. Only for blocking ranged, not to be used in melee.

You have to be careful though...if you make one too easy to acquire then all 2h players will take one and ranged will have absolutely nothing to do.

It would have to be 3 slots.
Or just use a siege shield, it pretty much describes what you suggest.
Or just use teamwork and hang behind your shielder teamies.  They should be going first anyways.

[Templar_Steevee]

Force fields on shields are too big IMO. It can be easilly noticed in strat battles especially, when for ex. i am shooting from walls with angle about 75 degreeces and i'm sometimes unable to hit someone's head while he is holding his shield in angle about 30-40 degreeces

[Phew]

1. Let everyone pick up and use any shield (with penalty if requirement is not met)
2. Buff shield skill so it actually does something besides let you go one more axe swing before you have to pick up another shield from the ground

Those two changes would go a long way toward reducing the whining about ranged while actually rewarding people for putting points in one of the worst skills in the game (shield skill).

[Penitent]

1. Let everyone pick up and use any shield (with penalty if requirement is not met)
2. Buff shield skill so it actually does something besides let you go one more axe swing before you have to pick up another shield from the ground

Those two changes would go a long way toward reducing the whining about ranged while actually rewarding people for putting points in one of the worst skills in the game (shield skill).

Phew, you are a super-cool shielder forever now...how can you say shield skill is the most useless skill!  Have you used a kite shield with 3 shield skill and again with 6 shield skill?  It make a world of difference!

Also, as the game stands now, having 5 or 6 shield skill lets you use shields that are much stronger than the ones available at lower tiers.  This is far from useless.  I have a steel shield and no one has ever broken it yet.  It allows me to adopt a patient yet deadly combat style that I couldn't dream of using with only 4 shield skill. 

This is far from useless!  I think horse archery is a more useless skill, or even IF or WM -- compared to having an awesome shield.

[Phew]

Phew, you are a super-cool shielder forever now...how can you say shield skill is the most useless skill!  Have you used a kite shield with 3 shield skill and again with 6 shield skill?  It make a world of difference!

Also, as the game stands now, having 5 or 6 shield skill lets you use shields that are much stronger than the ones available at lower tiers.  This is far from useless.  I have a steel shield and no one has ever broken it yet.  It allows me to adopt a patient yet deadly combat style that I couldn't dream of using with only 4 shield skill. 

This is far from useless!  I think horse archery is a more useless skill, or even IF or WM -- compared to having an awesome shield.

OK, let me rephrase; shield skill above the requirement is nearly useless. With my +3 Knightly Heater shield, going from 4 skill to 7 skill allows my shield to survive exactly one more axe swing. Weapons without bonus vs. shield are unlikely to break it even with 4 skill. Even with 7 skill:
-People commonly swing around my block even if I am facing them directly (this is unaffected by shield skill)
-Blocks won't raise within a certain window after dropping block (this is unaffected by shield skill)
-Ranged weapons still go over/under/around/through my shield all the time (this is mostly unaffected by shield skill)
-The shield weighs me down a lot (this is unaffected by shield skill)
-I get crushed through almost every time (this is unaffected by shield skill)
-I get block stunned by anything heavier than ~3.5kg (this is unaffected by shield skill)

Those three skill points would be better spent almost anywhere:
Ironflesh-nets me 11% more hit points
Riding-I could ride a Rouncey
Weapon Master-Increase weapon damage by ~3% and speed by ~1% (fairly crappy, but still better than shield skill)
Power Throw-30% more throwing damage and/or the ability to throw Axes/Javs/etc

Shields don't suck, but the shield skill does.

[CrazyCracka420]

I've never felt it was useful to go above the riding or shield requirement of the horse/shield you want to use.  Like Phew says, those points are much more valuable elsewhere in your build.

[Penitent]

OK, let me rephrase; shield skill above the requirement is nearly useless. With my +3 Knightly Heater shield, going from 4 skill to 7 skill allows my shield to survive exactly one more axe swing. Weapons without bonus vs. shield are unlikely to break it even with 4 skill. Even with 7 skill:
-People commonly swing around my block even if I am facing them directly (this is unaffected by shield skill)
-Blocks won't raise within a certain window after dropping block (this is unaffected by shield skill)
-Ranged weapons still go over/under/around/through my shield all the time (this is mostly unaffected by shield skill)
-The shield weighs me down a lot (this is unaffected by shield skill)
-I get crushed through almost every time (this is unaffected by shield skill)
-I get block stunned by anything heavier than ~3.5kg (this is unaffected by shield skill)

Those three skill points would be better spent almost anywhere:
Ironflesh-nets me 11% more hit points
Riding-I could ride a Rouncey
Weapon Master-Increase weapon damage by ~3% and speed by ~1% (fairly crappy, but still better than shield skill)
Power Throw-30% more throwing damage and/or the ability to throw Axes/Javs/etc

Shields don't suck, but the shield skill does.

I see what you mean.  You are probably the shielder I respect the most in game (and I hate fighting you  ) but I think you may be looking at this wrong.

I think some of the suggestions you put make real sense to add -- but shield skill is very good because it lets you use better shields.  Just like having more than 3 riding doesn't make your rouncey much better....but having 5 will let you use a much better horse.  (an aside, I think having more points in riding than required does noticeably increase the mobility of the horse).

Having 5 or 6 shield skill lets you use shield that CAN take much more axe hits and help with enemies trying to hit around your shield (huscarl shield, steel shield).  Also, the if you get up to 6 shield skill, my steel shield resists crush-through the majority of the time.  It also consistently blocks Ballista shots at point blank range!

If you are using a +3 rouncey with 3 riding and don't see the point in getting any more points in riding its kind of the same as using a +3 knightly kite shield and complaining that having more than 4 shield skill is useless.  There is better equipment available to you with more skill in that category.

I know the tier 4 shields are kind of what everyone uses because they are fast, but personally I don't notice any difference at all when using slower shields...so these stronker, wider, beefier shields are definitely viable.

In the end, I DO agree that shield skill should do a bit more for you...perhaps increased block speed or reduced weight.  However, I think another good way to make shield skill more useful is to incrase shield variety once you get to difficulty 5 and 6 shields.  If we make more awesome shields that you need more skill to use, it will make sense to take more points in shield as well.

[CrazyCracka420]

I think the 4 shield skill shields are the best shields in the game (for their high resistance, fast speed, and ability to be used by cavalry).  The higher tier 5/6 skill shields are nice for taking more hits (depending on what's hitting the shield), but they are heavy and slow as balls.

I don't think you're comparing apples to apples when you talk about having 5 or 6 or 7 shield skill and using a 4 skill shield, and then bring up that having 5 riding enables you to use 5 riding skill horses.  The 5, 6 and 7 riding skill horses are THE best horses in the game.  The 4 shield skill shields are (IMO) the best shields in the game. 

And sure, having 7 riding on a 5 riding skill horse (like a destrier) does make you slightly faster (not very noticeable unless you're on a long stretch trying to outrun someone).  The maneuverability is more noticeable, but I still don't think it's worth the trade-off of putting those points into having 1 more power strike.

I think most cavalry would agree that it's wasting skills (and attributes that can be converted with those skills) to put more into your riding skill than the horse you want to ride.

[Penitent]

I just have to be frank and say that the difficulty 4 knightly/elite cav shields are flimsy and weak.  Shield speed means almost nothing.  Hit points > resistance, in general.  They are useful because they are light and take only 1 slot, but that is all.  I've used all shields for a good time, and this is my conclusion.

If you want a good cav shield take the plate covered round shield or heavy kite shield...those are the best diff 4 shields imo.

[Phew]

Having 5 or 6 shield skill lets you use shield that CAN take much more axe hits and help with enemies trying to hit around your shield (huscarl shield, steel shield).  Also, the if you get up to 6 shield skill, my steel shield resists crush-through the majority of the time. 

Huscarl shield and steel buckler have the same lateral coverage against melee, extra width only helps against projectiles. CrazyCracka is right, the 4 skill requirement shields are the only ones that meet both of most people's requirements:
1. 100+ speed
2. Enough resistance to prevent arbalest penetration
Which is why most experienced shielders are using one of the Knightly Shields or an Elite Cav shield. I have used slower shields (Heavy Round/etc), and they mostly work, but those precious milliseconds of delay get you killed against guys with fast reflexes and half your ping.

No offense to your playstyle choice, but Steel Shield isn't really a consideration for most shielders. It's obviously a powerful tool in certain specialized situations (getting past maulers on siege, protecting a flag/gate, trolling ballista users, etc), it's just not very good in general unmounted combat situations (due to slow movement+slow blocking).

[Jona]

For all of my 15 gens I have cursed ranged... never once have I carried a shield (except for one strat battle where I overleveled). However, ranged was truly devastating back in the day, and it is severely weaker in this game in order to allow some fun to be had by melee. While keeping in mind that I do indeed curse any archer/xbow and especially thrower that manages to do me in, I must say that adding shields that require minimal (or no) investment would really, really, really, really suck for all ranged. Every single target of theirs would be protected... they would be able to shoot anyone except for in the back while they dueled someone else. Just think about siege for a moment. How easy would it be for the entire attacking team to just waltz up the ladders and over the walls without any ranged fire to pester them?

[Phew]

How easy would it be for the entire attacking team to just waltz up the ladders and over the walls without any ranged fire to pester them?

Chief among these penalties that would be incurred for having shield skill below the requirement would be reduced HP and resistance, so throwing weapons would break these "un-specced" shields quickly, and bolts would easily penetrate them. Even with 7 shield skill, archers have no problem shooting around/over my shield when ascending ladders on siege (mostly because archers are usually shooting from about a 180 degree arc as you ascend), so someone with no skill and a significantly weaker shield would still have only minimal protection from ranged, but it's better than being a sitting duck. Although the 0-requirement shields offer this now, and I pretty much never see 2h players using them while attacking on siege (even when they have free slots). I guess they feel that the reduced mobility from the shield weight counteracts being able to stop 2-3 arrows.

[Jona]

Chief among these penalties that would be incurred for having shield skill below the requirement would be reduced HP and resistance, so throwing weapons would break these "un-specced" shields quickly, and bolts would easily penetrate them. Even with 7 shield skill, archers have no problem shooting around/over my shield when ascending ladders on siege (mostly because archers are usually shooting from about a 180 degree arc as you ascend), so someone with no skill and a significantly weaker shield would still have only minimal protection from ranged, but it's better than being a sitting duck. Although the 0-requirement shields offer this now, and I pretty much never see 2h players using them while attacking on siege (even when they have free slots). I guess they feel that the reduced mobility from the shield weight counteracts being able to stop 2-3 arrows.

I am one of those 2h who doesn't bring a practice shield...


Courage is my shield.