Poll

WOULD MAP ROTATION ALTERATIONS HELP NA2?

Yes!
13 (35.1%)
Possibly
17 (45.9%)
No...
7 (18.9%)

Total Members Voted: 37

Author Topic: NA2's Population - Would Map Rotation Alterations Help?  (Read 2081 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Elindor

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1178
  • Infamy: 158
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Caelitus mihi vires
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Order of the Holy Guard
  • Game nicks: Elindor
NA2's Population - Would Map Rotation Alterations Help?
« on: July 30, 2013, 11:22:56 pm »
+8
Some of you may be aware that there have been some changes in the Scene Editing portion of the forums (yes, it does exist) :)
The devs have put two Scene Managers in charge (Fips and Teeth) that will help facilitate the map submission process and the rotations.
Scene Reviewers will assist in this process as well.  It will take time, but expect to see some good changes in regards to maps.
That being said, I had suggested something in the Scene Editing area that Fips asked me to post here for feedback.

The question is this...



NA2 LOW POP - WOULD MAP ROTATION ALTERATIONS HELP?


NA2 often struggles from low pop, whereas EU2 does not.  Those of us in the mapping community are trying to get to the bottom of this and wondering if the map rotation could be part of the problem.

Now before everyone gets their finger ready to reply with "Cus siege is 4 noobs", we are looking for feedback from people who are interested in playing siege more but do not for various reasons.  We want to know what those reasons are.  If you are a battle buff and just don't like siege, that is fine, but not worth posting. 

We want to know if there are changes that can be made to make NA2 more attractive to players.

-------------------------------

Much of the complaints I hear about siege are the maps, and everyone loves to hate on maps, but the question is this :

Are there certain maps on NA2 that you feel should be removed from the NA2 rotation?
This can be because either they do not work well with the relatively small NA2 population or maybe you feel they are just not well balanced maps in general.

Based on comments I have seen over time from players about maps that "are too big" and "kill the server" I have comprised a list of my PERSONAL suggestions, but these could very well be wrong.  If so, suggest which ones you think should be removed if you think them being removed would make you and others play NA2 more often.

-------------------------------

- Hrafninn Castle
(click to show/hide)

- Ibdeles Castle
(click to show/hide)

- Burg Rabenstein
(click to show/hide)

- Ridoma Castle
(click to show/hide)

-------------------------------

Again, these are my personal suggestions based off feedback I've seen on the servers over time.  Like these and want to keep them?  Let us know!
  Think other maps hurt the server population?  Let us know!


*** THIS MIGHT HELP ***
http://forum.meleegaming.com/scene-editing/current-map-cycle-with-screenshots-(wip)/

Let us know if you think that a revised map rotation which excludes some maps not well balanced for the low pop that NA2 often has would help encourage you to play NA2 more often.

Avoid trolling.  Be constructive.  :mrgreen:


« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 11:30:34 pm by Elindor »
Elindor, Archon of the Holy Guard
Holy Guard Thread :HERE
Banner Shop : HERE // Map Thread : HERE

Offline Jarold

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 987
  • Infamy: 142
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • "Always wear more armor than the guy next to you."
    • View Profile
  • Game nicks: Jarold
Re: NA2's Population - Would Map Rotation Alterations Help?
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2013, 11:49:07 pm »
+1
Although I don't disagree with you on many things Elindor, this is one. It's not the maps that kills siege, it's the players. Only a few dedicated players in NA love them some siege. The rest have to play Battle or else their k/d e-peen will die off.

Also I would hate to see these maps go, I love them. I for one don't care what map i'm on bad, good, or in between I just love variation and siege.

Offline Tojo

  • Earl
  • ******
  • Renown: 490
  • Infamy: 84
  • cRPG Player
  • Long Live NA_1
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Krems, HoC, Acre, MB, HG, Beserks
  • Game nicks: _Tojo, Drew_Brees, Tijo
Re: NA2's Population - Would Map Rotation Alterations Help?
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2013, 12:00:21 am »
0
I actually enoy the 1st two maps on your list, the Rabenstein and Ridoma I could do without.

 its only a couple of maps that are really one sided, especially the one where defense has to suicide jump after spawning.

I think just more maps in the rotation would be much better, I really like the native castles, but hardly get to play them.

IMO devs should make NA2 double XP then it will always be populated.

Offline Kelugarn

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 936
  • Infamy: 79
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • #̪͎̳̭̰͓͙ͯ͗̇͘ͅͅ1̢ͨ̈̆̓ͮ͐̌͏̪̦͓̣ ̽̇ͫ҉̸͕̻͙͖̮̹ͅN̡̥̭͖͙ͮ͊͡
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Free Peasants of Fisdnar
  • Game nicks: Froyo The Wizard
  • IRC nick: #FreeArys2012
Re: NA2's Population - Would Map Rotation Alterations Help?
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2013, 01:22:39 am »
+1
I actually enjoy all the maps on that list except Burg Rabenstein because I've never played it. I'm not sure why siege can be so dead for such long periods but I too feel like it's the players who kill the server, although not because they leave to go to battle. Usually I go on siege at rather odd hours and I've witnessed plenty of times where a clan is using the low pop to steamroll and maintain an x5 through multiple maps, which drives people away and keeps the pop low until something finally breaks the cycle. I guess it's because the "player threshold" for siege is higher than that of battle, meaning that it takes a higher server pop to have good balance and game play in siege than in battle.

Just my thoughts, I could be totally wrong.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Offline Little Lord Lollipop

  • Duke
  • *******
  • Renown: 582
  • Infamy: 49
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Always Take The Shot
  • Game nicks: Frumpty_Dumpty_ATTS
Re: NA2's Population - Would Map Rotation Alterations Help?
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2013, 01:51:45 am »
0
Burg Rabenstein needs to go, it is poorly designed and glitchy. I enjoy playing on the other 3.

Another map that should be removed is the one where defenders spawn on a balcony high above the flag and have no way down but to suicide jump (unsure of name).

To increase population perhaps the base experience/gold multiplier could be set to x2 (max multiplier x6). Or it could be implemented where strat ticks are earned at any multiplier level.
Dear Little Lord Lollipop
You have received a warning for being a total twat.
Best Regards,
The cRPG Forum Team

Offline Nightingale

  • Balancer
  • *
  • Renown: 925
  • Infamy: 205
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Game nicks: Elderly Woman
  • IRC nick: Nightingale
Re: NA2's Population - Would Map Rotation Alterations Help?
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2013, 02:16:09 am »
+3
I don't play siege because no one plays it.

Offline Vingnir the Wanderer

  • Knight
  • ***
  • Renown: 50
  • Infamy: 32
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Snowhawk
  • Game nicks: Ving
Re: NA2's Population - Would Map Rotation Alterations Help?
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2013, 02:17:23 am »
0
I find Ridoma Castle, boring to play.

We definitely need MORE maps, in the rotation...  People get bored.  The only thing thats going to get people to play siege, is something new about it.  Like more maps, at the very least.

Offline Elindor

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1178
  • Infamy: 158
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Caelitus mihi vires
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Order of the Holy Guard
  • Game nicks: Elindor
Re: NA2's Population - Would Map Rotation Alterations Help?
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2013, 02:55:36 am »
0
Good feedback all.

Remember, the maps I listed are purely to get the conversation going - we are open to feedback about keeping those maps and removing others.  If you have other maps you think hurt siege then go to the link I provided and look through the rotation with screenshots that Fips put together (or offer solutions on what could be done to FIX a particular map if it seems unbalanced or bugged in some way)

:arrow: The core of the question is - is there something the Scene Managers and team can do to bring more life to NA2.
Unfortunately issues of banner balance (which I agree with) cannot be addressed by the Scene teams.

Focus on answers that address that question.  Keep up the constructive information.
Elindor, Archon of the Holy Guard
Holy Guard Thread :HERE
Banner Shop : HERE // Map Thread : HERE

Offline Froto_the_Loc

  • Count
  • *****
  • Renown: 252
  • Infamy: 94
  • cRPG Player Sir White Pawn
  • CRaPGame
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Locia
  • Game nicks: Froto_the_loc
Re: NA2's Population - Would Map Rotation Alterations Help?
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2013, 03:14:28 am »
0
Fips had said something to me about my map the other day, but I only know of one thing wrong with it for sure.
And the "x2 multiplier" suggestion would just cause even more battlemy old friends to encroach upon the server, which is the reason I don't play there much.

I think the maps need a more unique approach. Beyond the vision of a traditional castle, but still playable.
But, maybe it's beyond the maps? I know the GK siege server has things like boiling oil, catapults, ballistae. These things add something different to the stale "walk into the castle on a warpath to the flag." One can dream, I suppose.
Hooray for customization and hybridization!
Down with monotonous pure classes!

Offline Apollo

  • Strategus Councillor
  • **
  • Renown: 194
  • Infamy: 38
  • cRPG Player
  • The Gay Serf
    • View Profile
  • Faction: GOBBLIN EMPIRE
  • Game nicks: Apollo, Asstron_the_Assassinator
Re: NA2's Population - Would Map Rotation Alterations Help?
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2013, 03:14:52 am »
+2
Stop with the "open field" siege maps. You aren't sieging anything if there is just a flag randomly placed in a field.
You don't need to ban or anything just for future reference or something because he's rude to me.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Offline Sparvico

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 976
  • Infamy: 174
  • cRPG Player Sir Black Bishop A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Steam ID: Sparvico
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Mossbacks
  • Game nicks: Sparvico et al.
Re: NA2's Population - Would Map Rotation Alterations Help?
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2013, 03:35:58 am »
0
I think that the addition of new maps would be more beneficial. Not everyone can agree on what maps are unbalanced, or even what the term balanced means, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that isn't at least a little bored of all the maps in siege.

Additionally, I think that removing broken maps would only re-attract people that knew the map was broken (i.e. existing siege players) whereas adding new maps could attract people that rarely play siege and want to check the new ones out.

Removing truly broken maps is of course necessary, but that will only work towards sustaining the resident population. If you want to attract more people to siege you've got to give them something that they haven't already seen.

(as a side note: new features like boiling oil, balistias, and other things that can't exist in a battle server could also act as attractants).
Quote
Mossback_Westwood: "I swear 2 my semitic God if you give me this bundle of sticks's address I'll cut off his ear and eat it"

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Offline Fips

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1217
  • Infamy: 290
  • cRPG Player Sir White Bishop A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Holy Roman Empire
  • Game nicks: Fips_HRE
Re: NA2's Population - Would Map Rotation Alterations Help?
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2013, 03:56:02 am »
0
I find Ridoma Castle, boring to play.

We definitely need MORE maps, in the rotation...  People get bored.  The only thing thats going to get people to play siege, is something new about it.  Like more maps, at the very least.

There are 35 maps in the rotation, 5 of them completely new ones with several old ones getting back in after a rework. Getting new siege maps to work is a long process full of enraged players, so getting new ones in there is not as easy as with battle. If you happen to know of any OSP map packs out there, go ahead and tell me, teeth or elindor. We'll be glad to look through them. We will do this ourselves at some point, but right now there are other problems with the rotation to deal with, so any help would be appreciated.

And we already have working ballistaes. Thing is, they only work in conquest, which needs to be fixed first. I'll ask Ozin if they might actually work in the normal siege, but i doubt it.


@Apollo: Not quite sure what you are talking about. Those maps were only on siege between some patches (where they wrongly got in) and the hotfixes (where they got removed again). And right now they are definitely not in.

Offline Legs

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 819
  • Infamy: 88
  • cRPG Player
  • Loco Motive
    • View Profile
  • Game nicks: Arms, Legs
Re: NA2's Population - Would Map Rotation Alterations Help?
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2013, 04:00:23 am »
+1
It's more of an issue of population threshold. Siege just isn't appealing unless there's at least 20-30 players on the server. If there are fewer, nobody joins and the people who are already there gradually leave.

Maybe if there was an alternate rotation of smaller maps when the server population falls below a certain number. I'm not sure if that would be possible though, or if it would make a difference.

Really, it could just be that the cRPG player base isn't big enough that running several servers at once is feasible. During primetime there may be enough people online to get siege going but once we start getting into the off-hours it always empties out again.

P.S. I agree with Sparvico that enabling/adding siege gear on that server would probably attract people.
Legs are used for standing, walking, jumping, running, kicking, and similar activities.

Offline Jona

  • Balancer
  • *
  • Renown: 1372
  • Infamy: 376
  • cRPG Player Sir Black Bishop
  • OG Agi Whore
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Hounds of Chulainn
  • Game nicks: Jona, Siegafried
Re: NA2's Population - Would Map Rotation Alterations Help?
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2013, 04:06:21 am »
0
In my opinion, burg rabenstein absolutely has to go. I feel like Hrafnin has a very long walk (all uphill) for attackers, leading to much downtime and potential defense-bias. It is one of the very few maps that would arguably be biased to the defense, at least in the usual low population. Ibdeles and Ridoma happen to be two of my favorite maps, since all maps that aren't broken tend to be among my favorites. That, and I see nothing wrong with either of them at all.

That one map where the defenders must (90% of the time, anyways) jump to their deaths from spawn definitely needs to go (and i say 90% since you can survive with only taking 1/2 - 2/3 damage if you are a pro). On that same map the attackers also spawn underwater, making their whole screen blue until they finally climb the really long staircase right in front of the flag. So if the 1 glitched spawn wasn't bad enough, to completely kill the map, that is. I have seen this one map empty a server when polls weren't enabled.

Other than adding new maps, I definitely think that fixing the bugs in the old ones would be a great way to get more players into siege. Plenty of maps have gates that can't be opened by defenders all the time, or they can only be opened from one side (still not sure if this is intentional or not... nothing like locking your whole defending team out of the flag building while it's getting capped). Not to mention that one map where defenders can't open the gate, but the attackers can... and open it from the outside too. That map wouldn't be too bad if it was bugged. While these fixes wouldn't necessarily draw in new players, it wouldn't give a reason for current siege players to up and leave prematurely.

As I mentioned earlier, many of the maps tend to be attacker-biased (even with no more overtime), especially with low population. With very high population (very very rare nowadays) the defending team has enough players to camp ladders almost endlessly, while in low-pop you are lucky if you can die and come back and not have to rush to the flag, then fight on the flag for the rest of the match. An interesting suggestion, and one that can't be fulfilled by the scene managers, unfortunately) would be to have variable spawn timers for defenders, with the variable being server population. This means when the server is at a relative high, or really just medium when compared to battle's standards, the respawn timer would be at 30 or so, as it always is now. But with lower pop, that time would decrease. If the server is a 4v4 (lowest possible to get multis) you can have 1 hero cut down the entire defending team, get to the flag, and cap it before they respawn. So sure, it might not draw more people to siege, but once again it will greatly improve it in its current state. And if it is a better game mode... perhaps more people will stick around.

And we already have working ballistaes. Thing is, they only work in conquest, which needs to be fixed first. I'll ask Ozin if they might actually work in the normal siege, but i doubt it.


@Apollo: Not quite sure what you are talking about. Those maps were only on siege between some patches (where they wrongly got in) and the hotfixes (where they got removed again). And right now they are definitely not in.

I personally hated ballistas in the conquest game mode... sure it was great that it helped the defenders (not that they ever needed help in that particular game mode) but the attackers could easily take them over and use them against the defenders. And with low population, you can't guard both the flag, the ladders, the gate, and the ballista. Heck, nowadays you really can only guard the ladders, or the flag, and hope they never get to the gatehouse. And if you split so that you've got half at flag, half a ladders, the ladder guys will get overwhelmed and die.. then the entire hoard of attackers will overwhelm the flag campers before the ladder guys even respawn, and boom.. attackers win yet again. While new gimmicky things such as this might draw a few curious people, I feel that it will innevitably hurt the game mode in the long run, once the curiosity dies down.

Also, believe it or not, open field maps pop up a lot... not sure if maybe one map is glitched or something, so you don't think its an open field but it is.. but they have been showing up for all time, and have yet to go anywhere. I played on one just yesterday or the day before. To be honest though (I know I am in the minority here) they change up the gameplay so much that I enjoy the open field maps. And they go by quickly (unless you've got a stacked defense team, which just means the entire round is a frantic flag-area-bloodbath.. which is epic fun) so they don't kill the servers too much. I don't even get mad losing a multi if I am on defense since it is such a refreshing time. Personally I like fighting in open fields, but I dislike battle due to the long wait time if you have got delayers and whatnot. And also open fields are much more fun when no one is expecting it so you have got at most 2 cav.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 04:16:54 am by Jona »
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


"I'll have my lance aimed at Jona's knees and he'll jump up, run up my lance and kill me." -Dalfador

Offline Fips

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1217
  • Infamy: 290
  • cRPG Player Sir White Bishop A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Holy Roman Empire
  • Game nicks: Fips_HRE
Re: NA2's Population - Would Map Rotation Alterations Help?
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2013, 04:20:04 am »
0
I'm not quite sure why you guys didn't notice it yet, but there has been a ton of updates with the latest patch. So just generally expect to have map updates with every patch from now on. The 4 months without any updates whatsoever really seemed to have killed na siege =o

Rabenstein got a huge update, hrafnin is probably one of the maps that need to go for NA (Because it works perfectly on EU), the map with jumping is out, the one with bugged gates is fixed (gates can only be opened from one side, btw), just to mention the ones that were posted here.

Quote
I personally hated ballistas in the conquest game mode... sure it was great that it helped the defenders (not that they ever needed help in that particular game mode) but the attackers could easily take them over and use them against the defenders. And with low population, you can't guard both the flag, the ladders, the gate, and the ballista. Heck, nowadays you really can only guard the ladders, or the flag, and hope they never get to the gatehouse. And if you split so that you've got half at flag, half a ladders, the ladder guys will get overwhelmed and die.. then the entire hoard of attackers will overwhelm the flag campers before the ladder guys even respawn, and boom.. attackers win yet again. While new gimmicky things such as this might draw a few curious people, I feel that it will innevitably hurt the game mode in the long run, once the curiosity dies down.

Also, believe it or not, open field maps pop up a lot... not sure if maybe one map is glitched or something, so you don't think its an open field but it is.. but they have been showing up for all time, and have yet to go anywhere. I played on one just yesterday or the day before. To be honest though (I know I am in the minority here) they change up the gameplay so much that I enjoy the open field maps. And they go by quickly (unless you've got a stacked defense team, which just means the entire round is a frantic flag-area-bloodbath.. which is epic fun) so they don't kill the servers too much. I don't even get mad losing a multi if I am on defense since it is such a refreshing time. Personally I like fighting in open fields, but I dislike battle due to the long wait time if you have got delayers and whatnot. And also open fields are much more fun when no one is expecting it so you have got at most 2 cav.

Those ballistas were just placed very poorly and were probably only there for testing purposes anyway. Smart placement can make those ballistas only usable for defence or attacker. And if you want to, you can let both access them, simply by not having any angle restrictions on them. So no, ballistas are a great thing and if there is a way to implement them, they will definitely be a thing in siege.

And nope, you definitely not played on a field battle just yesterday, or anytime since the latest patch. NA has the exact same rotation as EU and there are no random plains in it whatsoever. Maybe there is some very weird thing going on in NA that we scene managers cannot control, but NA can't be that fucked up =P
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 04:27:45 am by Fips »