Author Topic: New Dhirim defenses  (Read 1517 times)

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Offline Tojo

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New Dhirim defenses
« on: July 07, 2013, 12:51:13 am »
+1
The town/castle of New Dhirim has some extremely defensible positions that are borderline unfair. The castles super powered defenses start at the outer walls of which you can only attack one side. The one wall that you can put ladders on is fairly balanced for both sides including the gatehouse. However once attackers are inside the castles walls all the defensive team has to do is fall back to their inner keep to turtle the rest of the battle. Now I have no problem with turtling at your last defensive position, but it is unfair to provide only a single door way to charge through and no way of laddering up to the roof. If played on defense this is probably the easiest castle to protect seeing as the enemy can only win if they somehow manage to go single file through a doorway and kill the entire defense waiting inside the doorway. When playing this map I felt like a cow going through a murder chute...

The map is not completely broken I believe if the invisible walls are fixed it will be a much more fairly balanced castle.

Offline Havoco

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Re: New Dhirim defenses
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2013, 01:06:27 am »
+4
Hah gaaay.
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Offline Malaclypse

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Re: New Dhirim defenses
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2013, 02:10:38 am »
+2
Yeah, removing the invisible walls over the archways would go miles towards improving it. Also, further expanding the walls to include a bit more of the rooftops on either side.

The inside of the keep obviously has too much going on as far as areas where defenders are able to spawn and hold a choke-point; I'd say that the dining hall area could do with two front entries, with slightly larger doorways, and the final flags could be stopped there in that room. The other areas of the inner keep (stairway, bedroom, murder holes, treasure room) could still exist, but wouldn't have flags within them.
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Re: New Dhirim defenses
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2013, 03:34:23 am »
+1
The town/castle of New Dhirim has some extremely defensible positions that are borderline unfair. The castles super powered defenses start at the outer walls of which you can only attack one side. The one wall that you can put ladders on is fairly balanced for both sides including the gatehouse. However once attackers are inside the castles walls all the defensive team has to do is fall back to their inner keep to turtle the rest of the battle. Now I have no problem with turtling at your last defensive position, but it is unfair to provide only a single door way to charge through and no way of laddering up to the roof. If played on defense this is probably the easiest castle to protect seeing as the enemy can only win if they somehow manage to go single file through a doorway and kill the entire defense waiting inside the doorway. When playing this map I felt like a cow going through a murder chute...

The map is not completely broken I believe if the invisible walls are fixed it will be a much more fairly balanced castle.

The walls seem rather bad on defense from the point of view of the defenders. We've only been able to get approx. 10 minutes of decent kills on the walls as defense. Of course, once we fall back from the walls into the archway, it is rather debatable if those are balanced. The "rondel room" is retardedly defensible (and hilarious) and should be changed, of course. That being said, I don't mind in the slightest defending that room. I laugh at least once every 30 seconds defending that room. It's truly great, and I pity anyone attacking Dhirim.
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Offline Keshian

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Re: New Dhirim defenses
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2013, 06:19:27 am »
-2
Simplest solution to make this on par with every other city on the map -make it an impassable doorway into the keep and remove the flags inside it.  Problem solved, no idiotic single file pathway with 50 guys overheading/shooting/kicking as each attacker goes through the doorway single file.
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Offline Zaren

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Re: New Dhirim defenses
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2013, 06:51:22 am »
+4
Or install a larger doorway(2 or 3x the size it is now and better roofs) and make there be a last stand area like that in every city....Its supposed to be a fortress for fucks sake. Yes Dhirim is unfair, but NO you should not be able to roll a city with 1 army(or even 2 or 3) unless the defenders are idiots.

Offline Canary

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Re: New Dhirim defenses
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2013, 10:58:56 am »
+2
Simplest solution to make this on par with every other city on the map -make it an impassable doorway into the keep and remove the flags inside it.  Problem solved, no idiotic single file pathway with 50 guys overheading/shooting/kicking as each attacker goes through the doorway single file.

That would not make it on par with every other town on the map - Dhirim is tiny. It's already much smaller than any of the other revamped towns, to the point where it's not even much bigger than the native town maps. What you're talking about is reducing the total area and number of flags the defenders have to work with on a map already significantly smaller than others of its type while changing no other aspect of the map. It deserves to be looked at more than that.

The clusterfuck doorway chokepoint is bad, yes, but the only thing the map has going for it for the defending side is a single thoroughfare of chokepoints. There's nowhere else to go to try and defend once the disproportionately small amount of walls have been bypassed. Cutting the only area it's possible to defend for a prolonged period of time in half won't fix the map and make it balanced, it would only turn it backwards and make it a cakewalk for the attackers.



Also, here are the parts in other threads where people have talked about Dhirim specifically, if anyone cares to reference what people have already said about it.

A few replies starting from this post and a more heated and dramatic conversation about the war surrounding the town starting from this post.

Offline Keshian

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Re: New Dhirim defenses
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2013, 02:42:01 pm »
-1
That would not make it on par with every other town on the map - Dhirim is tiny. It's already much smaller than any of the other revamped towns, to the point where it's not even much bigger than the native town maps. What you're talking about is reducing the total area and number of flags the defenders have to work with on a map already significantly smaller than others of its type while changing no other aspect of the map. It deserves to be looked at more than that.

The clusterfuck doorway chokepoint is bad, yes, but the only thing the map has going for it for the defending side is a single thoroughfare of chokepoints. There's nowhere else to go to try and defend once the disproportionately small amount of walls have been bypassed. Cutting the only area it's possible to defend for a prolonged period of time in half won't fix the map and make it balanced, it would only turn it backwards and make it a cakewalk for the attackers.



Also, here are the parts in other threads where people have talked about Dhirim specifically, if anyone cares to reference what people have already said about it.

A few replies starting from this post and a more heated and dramatic conversation about the war surrounding the town starting from this post.

Not really.  You just need to actually defend your walls instead of running away back to a broken inner keep area first chance you got.  Combined with 2 chokepoints I would say its very similar to curaw or ichamur, maybe slightly better with how strong those 2 chokepoints still are being narrow and controllable.
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Offline BaleOhay

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Re: New Dhirim defenses
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2013, 04:50:46 pm »
+3
have to agree.... The first attack you held the walls much longer because you had your spawns set on them.

every other attack your people had the respawns set behind the choke points... which gave us the wall in 5-10 mins easily.

Those walls are fine and not even that wide. Should not be very hard to hold them with some effort. No effort was really put into it because you all knew what you had if you fall back immediately.

Not sure eliminating all of the back is needed.... Opening that door completely and or allowing an access point from above would be helpful. Taking away the mass amount of rooms and flags inside would also help. (not just making it wider)

Part of the issue is respawn timers. Fall back to the choke points with barely defending the front gives defense great respawn timers the rest of the fight. Attackers because it takes a lot more to break those points by the end of that funnel of death have very high respawn timers by comparrison, makign the taking of the place harder than any other.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 04:54:48 pm by BaleOhay »
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Offline Canary

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Re: New Dhirim defenses
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2013, 08:37:29 pm »
+1
I have to disagree, but here you see the dichotomy between a defender's and an attacker's perspective on map design, I reckon.

The front walls are plainly obnoxious to hold, moreso than any castle I've defended before. The wooden roofed section to the left of the gatehouse is too dangerous to keep people on top of because of lack of cover, and it requires a ladder to even reach it from inside. There is an easily accessible way to drop down and get behind attackers on the walls in two spots because of the side roof of a building behind and between the middle-left tall tower and the gatehouse. That middle-left tall tower itself is easily reachable by laddering from multiple sides and because of its size (large outer surface to catch ladders, small inner space) and twisting stairway is hard to defend against people coming from outside.

We defended them less and less each time because they're difficult walls to try and hold, and, really, it's a town. There should be more to it than just the walls.

There is also the case of catapults rendering the entire front section worthless. Once that's done, there are only the open courtyard (with at least three ways for attackers to access) and the archway corridor remaining.

Not really.  You just need to actually defend your walls instead of running away back to a broken inner keep area first chance you got.  Combined with 2 chokepoints I would say its very similar to curaw or ichamur, maybe slightly better with how strong those 2 chokepoints still are being narrow and controllable.

Don't you "not really" me, the map is smaller than any other town and that is the truth.


Part of the issue is respawn timers. Fall back to the choke points with barely defending the front gives defense great respawn timers the rest of the fight. Attackers because it takes a lot more to break those points by the end of that funnel of death have very high respawn timers by comparrison, makign the taking of the place harder than any other.

Because of the one-dimensional nature of Dhirim, it quickly becomes a fight only of attrition, with chokepoints favoring the defense. The only choice is to grind through one path, where almost every other fief on the map has at least two different ways to approach/ways for defenders to spread out.

Not sure eliminating all of the back is needed.... Opening that door completely and or allowing an access point from above would be helpful. Taking away the mass amount of rooms and flags inside would also help. (not just making it wider)

There is a doorway to the second floor of the keep that's blocked off, but a whole second area to the left of the wall inside the archway chokepoints would have to be put in for it to be reachable. Any second area like that beyond the current open courtyard area would probably improve the map, so it's an idea worth looking at.

The problem with mapmaking in this case is that the keep is, for the most part, one scene object. It either gets scaled on the whole, moved, or removed and possibly replaced.


Edit: To clarify, the walls are bad, but not irrevocably broken, as the doorway chokepoints are. The map balance as a whole, however, does not revolve around them, and the more usable portion of map made unavailable where the rest of it remains unchanged will tip the balance askew too far in the opposite direction. Many castles and towns have rooms with tiny chokepoints and flags inside, the thing that makes this case so egregious is that defenders can't really spread out, so those are the only flags they wind up spawning from early on, and that there are so many inside one single building.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 08:59:40 pm by Canary »

Offline Matey

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Re: New Dhirim defenses
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2013, 08:38:38 pm »
+1
I dunno if Kesh's idea is the best, but to expand on it anyways... if you remove the flags from that inner keep chokepoint area you would then put an equal number of flags elsewhere. The initial courtyard behind that walls has hardly any flags right now, so moving a bunch of flags to that area would actually make it more defensible.

Offline Turboflex

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Re: New Dhirim defenses
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2013, 01:21:07 am »
+2
after fighting halmar 2x I gotta agree Dhirim is a retardedly small map. Halmar must have like 150 flags.

Offline Chris_the_Animal

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Re: New Dhirim defenses
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2013, 01:46:35 am »
+4
I just hopped into NA 3 and when I saw this awesome Meat Grinder I thaught "what the hack...I want this too!"...but then I recognized the desperate tries of some lone players trying to charge through the door.
When they managed to not getting headshot 1 milisecond after showing hisself they got kicked by 3 players, ate 3 pike stabs, got 5 Steel Pick side-hits and got knockdowned by 2 maulers. One time somebody survived the first hit-wave and it was like "how the fuck did he survive this?", but literally there was no chance for anyone to get into this keep without the Chaos crew allowing them to come in.
Even if there were 20 Great Maulers in the attacker team there would not be a chance...The door is only big enough for one single person...20 Maulers would just mean 20 Headshot Kills in a row...

Just to say: This Map is unbalanced as fuck, but Eye-Candy for every Spectator who is neutral and an amazing Troll-Experience for the defenders.
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