Range Spam in Eu1

[Miwiw]

Ranged. Pretty simple really. One archer can easily ruin the game and fun for 10 melee guys while 1 melee guy can't ruin the fun for any ranged. How is that for common sense...

Now that's a really stupid comment.

I think I'll just go HA again. Let me check for gear. Melee isnt possible for me anyway. Server's shit, never experienced so much lag.

[Kafein]

False. From the moment that one melee guy pulls a shield up on me, Im powerless.

The moment you spawn, all enemy melee are powerless against you because you are away from them.

Besides you aren't fighting in a vacuum, you only need to get one archer buddy and this shielder will never reach you unless you really want him to.

The same shielder against two 2h/pole axe users can damn well win more often than against two archers, then we go talking about counters, advantages and disadvantages.

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I'm not bothered by it, it's the same arguments (aka whining) every day in multiple threads.  Nothing constructive comes out of it.  Can't you condense the crying and pity party to one location instead of shitting up the forums with all these threads?

One side thinks that it's okay to whine on the forums and hope the dev's will save them from their hell that is melee fighting. 

The other side thinks you should grow up and accept responsibility for your actions rather than change the way other people play the game. 

You're not going to sway the other's opinion, so I'll just keep pointing and laughing at all the whiney bitches.  That's what I'm doing in these threads.  And it helps kill time while I'm "working".  That's why I'm here. 

Here's to all the whiners and non-adapters: 

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What do you mean by "constructive" exactly, if we aren't allowed to make changes to the game ? We can't even start a civil discussion, and it's exactly when people make original suggestions that the "QQ" comments show up. It's okay to comment about it when you feel there is a problem with the game and that it could be fixed without hurting any player. Do you want a worse game ? Your talk about "adapting" is always completely vague ("teamwork", yeah and what do we do ?) and never mentions what is this magic counter to ranged. It is completely interchangeable and has no link with the problem whatsoever. You have cancer ? Adapt, use teamwork ! That's how you sound.

I think all melee players know when they deserved being shot. The problem occurs when they did not, or when there is nothing they can do to save their life, even in retrospect.

[Molly]

Not an argument but an opinion.

People really need to learn the difference.

[...]
Anyways, your point earlier about how one archer can ruin something if their are 10 melee characters left. 
Well, to start.  There is probably no way of fixing that when it comes to a ranged weapon.
Secondly, maybe it would of been smart for those 10 melee people left to defend archers rather then being a "Hero" and charging in.  I know teamwork is not a valid defense, but "Player-choices" are not a good offensive for this argument either.
[...]

At no point I was talking about anyone being last.
It happens all the time. Two groups of 2h heroes meet on the battlefield. One archer is "helping" his team by shooting the other team. Nice battle ruined cuz of the ridiculous stagger.

Two groups of archer shoot at each other - not really happening since we all know most ranged don't bother about shooting the other ranged or cav since they are busy shooting into melee but for the examples sake, let's pretend - and one melee guy is going for the enemy archer group... they are not even bothered cuz the poor infantry guy is shot to bits in mere seconds.

Silly examples but it's merely to explain what I ment.

Just back from the game, and comments like that make me sick.

Going around a shield is a huge gamble, especially if the shielder knows that can happen. Chances are you'll get slashed in the head. And then even if you get an arrow in, they generaly survive and cut you down like paper. If you expect a shield to survive several archers, then you have wrong expectations, but dont even try to deny the crap I've had to endure since warband was created. It's really revolting.

You're probably just not good enough. There are several archers regularly on EU1 who even win rounds in 1vs3 situations.

[Miwiw]

It happens all the time. Two groups of 2h heroes meet on the battlefield. One archer is "helping" his team by shooting the other team. Nice battle ruined cuz of the ridiculous stagger.

Ahm, that's how it works and should work. Why trying to aim for other Archers who are obviously harder to hit once they noticed they're getting shot if you could simply aim for the fat dumb 2h targets who are not moving that quickly because they're in a fight?
And ranged is also killing ranged.

battle ruined? It's intended. Just because it's not fun for the guy being shot, it doesnt mean it's out of place or shit.

[Grumpy_Nic]

What I've read so far, people are complaining that ranged are using teamplay to win. And that ranged are using ranged weapons which outrange melee weapons.
You should calm down a bit maybe and make at least an hour break from this game.

[Adamar]

you kind of archers make me sick as well, believeing that they are all rubbish and melee and that they cant fight back so they mus run round the map 5 times because they cant melee properly.

Adapt your builds like us meleeing cunts have to do, get some Ps get some wpf. You tell us melee add a few points in shield, well you archers should sacrifice something as well.

I did! I always had ps and a sidearm, and before the weight nerf, medium armor, despite the ever present accuracy penalty.
Whoever said I was a kitter? All the nerfs cripple all archer playstyles, when your pinned down by weight, theres no adapatability, you're just slower and you either lose more points to athlectics or lose your armor, either way you're plainly weaker. There's no ballanced way to addapt there!
When did you meleers ever lost anything? You remain on the top of everything, and yet everyone else is wrong and something must be done for you!

The moment you spawn, all enemy melee are powerless against you because you are away from them.

Bullshit, they can always dodge, seek couver or simply relly on the innacuracy of long ranged shots. If by any mental block they chose not to, then of course, ranged should be nerfed.

Besides you aren't fighting in a vacuum, you only need to get one archer buddy and this shielder will never reach you unless you really want him to.

Nonsence, an archer can't shoot while getting chased, and unless the tank choses to disreguard the other archer completely he wins. These situations happen every single day, and we're still talking about a 2 vs 1 situation. When I was reffering to 1 one 1 which happens all the time as well, so shields are indeed usefull. Dismissing shields or tactics as impractical is simply your easy way out of compromise.

But hey, archers have been underpowered for a very long time, and keep getting nerfed regardless, so Im not surprised about anything anymore. I just wish you guys got what you deserved for all of this several times over and without rest time.

The same shielder against two 2h/pole axe users can damn well win more often than against two archers, then we go talking about counters, advantages and disadvantages.

If the 2 archers where as noob as the 2 2h/pole users to lose together for a single shielder, then they'd never be able to match their shooting and would miss almost every arrow.

[Rumblood]

The whole perception of the ranged classes seems to be way off. The game itself makes it pretty clear that it's about melee combat. That's the part where it shines and where it's special. Therefore ranged is just the little sidekick to melee gameplay and it should be balanced as such. Ranged is support but not the main aspect.

Just my 2 cents...

Umm....No. The game itself makes it pretty clear that it is about Mounted combat, hence the name Mount and Blade.  That's the part where it shines and is special. Many games have infantry combat. Infantry is just a little sidekick to the mounted gameplay and should be balanced as such. Infantry is support, but not the main aspect.

[Alexia]

I guess, the "range spam" is only a product of all the qqing. I play archer as main and i just love to shoot at (i dont wanna say this but) stupid 2hander heroes charging at me and think thear lil spinthingy could help them.
for my defense im a 18/18 battle archer atm with fucking sword of war on my back and a yumi in my hands. i deal decent dmg with this 6 ps and not op dmg with my 6 pd.
to be honest, not the game should be changed in general, the Player should be changing it with individuell playstyle, skill and teamplay!

[Berserkadin]

Well fuck 2h scrubs anyway, I say buff ranged vs 2h heroes.

[Kafein]

Ahm, that's how it works and should work. Why trying to aim for other Archers who are obviously harder to hit once they noticed they're getting shot if you could simply aim for the fat dumb 2h targets who are not moving that quickly because they're in a fight?
And ranged is also killing ranged.

battle ruined? It's intended. Just because it's not fun for the guy being shot, it doesnt mean it's out of place or shit.

If archers prefer shooting into melee (and yes they all do), then stop saying melee should wait for their ranged buddies to help them when that obviously won't happen. Pro tip : nobody thinks he's suited to kill ranged. Why ? Because nobody really is !

Bullshit, they can always dodge, seek couver or simply relly on the innacuracy of long ranged shots. If by any mental block they chose not to, then of course, ranged should be nerfed.

That still doesn't mean they can harm you in any way while you can, dude. You said you were powerless against an enemy shielder with the shield up, that doesn't mean he can attack you.

Nonsence, an archer can't shoot while getting chased,

Play the game please

and unless the tank choses to disreguard the other archer completely he wins. These situations happen every single day, and we're still talking about a 2 vs 1 situation.

Unless the shielder is 100% concentrated on one archer only, he can't reach him. A proper min-max kiting archer anyway.

When I was reffering to 1 one 1 which happens all the time as well, so shields are indeed usefull. Dismissing shields or tactics as impractical is simply your easy way out of compromise.

Saying words like "tactics" and never explaining what you mean is your easy way out of compromise.

But hey, archers have been underpowered for a very long time, and keep getting nerfed regardless, so Im not surprised about anything anymore. I just wish you guys got what you deserved for all of this several times over and without rest time.

An individual archer is ok as long as he stands on flat terrain and therefore remains relatively vulnerable to cav to manage to sneak up on him. With unloomed bows and arrows he's weak. Several archers with a line of sight towards each other are very hard to reach without dying for any class, because they offer a much larger zone of support than melee classes (pretty evident). Now, about the archery nerfs, it's not true melee wasn't nerfed. The armor reduce buff which greatly increased the number of hit you need to kill people in armor affected melee considerably but not archery and xbows because their projectiles received an anti-armor damage buff at the same time. Furthermore, the evolution of the skill of the playerbase has always been towards better melee defense. People learn to block much more than they learn to dodge, and even the best dodging isn't 100% effective like blocking can be. Something as trivial has the effect of extending melee fights and therefore making melee increasingly uneffective against your average enemy. This is why nerfing archery is pretty much needed to keep the metagame balanced.

If the 2 archers where as noob as the 2 2h/pole users to lose together for a single shielder, then they'd never be able to match their shooting and would miss almost every arrow.

It's much more difficult to coordinate and not get in each other's way as two melee than as two archers. Those two archers can be pretty terrible, they don't risk shooting their buddy and each arrow they shoot has a chance of hitting and stunning the enemy even if their aiming is bad. Against a good blocker, each of the 2h swings has 0 chance of hitting the enemy if he blocks. If you chose the worst shielder ever, maybe two axe wielders would kill him quicker than two archers. But with the best shielders, this turns heavily in favor of the archers. Skill has a huge influence on melee defense, but with ranged defense you always need to be a bit lucky, and dodging is as deep a skill as a puddle.

[Necrorave]

I really do not understand why this argument is even valid

An individual archer is ok as long as he stands on flat terrain and therefore remains relatively vulnerable to cav to manage to sneak up on him. With unloomed bows and arrows he's weak. Several archers with a line of sight towards each other are very hard to reach without dying for any class, because they offer a much larger zone of support than melee classes (pretty evident). Now, about the archery nerfs, it's not true melee wasn't nerfed. The armor reduce buff which greatly increased the number of hit you need to kill people in armor affected melee considerably but not archery and xbows because their projectiles received an anti-armor damage buff at the same time. Furthermore, the evolution of the skill of the playerbase has always been towards better melee defense. People learn to block much more than they learn to dodge, and even the best dodging isn't 100% effective like blocking can be. Something as trivial has the effect of extending melee fights and therefore making melee increasingly uneffective against your average enemy. This is why nerfing archery is pretty much needed to keep the metagame balanced.

The moral of dying from a ranged character after charging him IS: do not charge a ranged character in an open field of view.  Yet none of you heroes seem to get it through your thick Great Helms.  All you can talk about is having some kind of ability that grants you a 100% chance of protection from a class you SHOULD NOT have protection from.  The only exception is a shield, or extremely heavy armor.  If you do not have either, then let your team mates who do, take care of them.  If you and a few of your friends have none and the last archer is in a field, then guess what?  Unless the archer has honor or the flag is protected, you lose.  It is the way of the game.  Seriously, get over it.

Dedicated archers are hindered when it comes to melee.  Hybrid archers are hindered when it comes to accuracy and armor not to mention they are still fairly weak with melee.  The only exception is crossbows, but the huge reload time and slot nerf evened most of it out.  (I agreed with the slot nerf)  Yet you want 2h (The one class that has no hinders EXCEPT being weak against ranged) to have a better chance of dealing with ranged?  The more and more you defend this silly argument, the more and more this looks like QQ and "I died, fix it."

[Kafein]

I really do not understand why this argument is even valid

The moral of dying from a ranged character after charging him IS: do not charge a ranged character in an open field of view.  Yet none of you heroes seem to get it through your thick Great Helms.  All you can talk about is having some kind of ability that grants you a 100% chance of protection from a class you SHOULD NOT have protection from.  The only exception is a shield, or extremely heavy armor.  If you do not have either, then let your team mates who do, take care of them.  If you and a few of your friends have none and the last archer is in a field, then guess what?  Unless the archer has honor or the flag is protected, you lose.  It is the way of the game.  Seriously, get over it.

Dedicated archers are hindered when it comes to melee.  Hybrid archers are hindered when it comes to accuracy and armor not to mention they are still fairly weak with melee.  The only exception is crossbows, but the huge reload time and slot nerf evened most of it out.  (I agreed with the slot nerf)  Yet you want 2h (The one class that has no hinders EXCEPT being weak against ranged) to have a better chance of dealing with ranged?  The more and more you defend this silly argument, the more and more this looks like QQ and "I died, fix it."

You didn't understand everything I wanted to say, but I may not be very clear sometimes.

First, the problem with hiding and waiting for someone else to kill archers is that nobody wants to do it and no class does it well. The best overall battle strategy against a ranged heavy team remains completely overpowering the enemy melee and using your number advantage after that in order to get to the archers. That's it. The best offense against an archer squad is a pile of bodies.

Second I don't want shieldless melee to be even slightly better off than now against archers or other ranged, they are weak to range and that's fine. What I want is the existence of some melee class (even with throwing or cav mixed in) that would be as effective against archers and crossbows as archers and crossbows are effective against shieldless melee. You guys don't have much legitimacy justifying your advantage over melee "because we are 2h counter hurr durr" when you don't have such a counter yourselves.

[Gravoth_iii]

What I've read so far, people are complaining that ranged are using teamplay to win. And that ranged are using ranged weapons which outrange melee weapons.
You should calm down a bit maybe and make at least an hour break from this game.

Lol, this!

[Grumbs]

Teamplay as ranged is optional, for melee not so much. If you want to talk about teamplay like you do with melee, how about making it so ranged can't take a melee weapon? No its only teamplay when it comes to melee vs ranged.

[Necrorave]

EDIT: Early morning post (For me).  Bunch of stuff that had nothing to do with the point of conversation.  Decided to get rid of it rather then finish it.