Author Topic: Enforce Gold-Only Transactions  (Read 4433 times)

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Offline Wrangham

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Enforce Gold-Only Transactions
« on: April 19, 2013, 02:53:20 am »
+1
Edit: Illuminating data on people who have -1'd the OP. If you wonder why people are against this suggestion, look at how it might affect their wallet:

Dach - 8 offers on marketplace, all asking for X item + 55k gold, without rhyme or reason except to ensure a tidy profit.
Kafein - one of 5 players with a trade booth. Simplifying the market would ensure that his trade booth would no longer have a purpose.
Mwiw - 22 offer on marketplace, all asking for X item in exchange for his near worthless Danish Greatsword.
Falka - "plenty of ppl got fucked up by market sharks, but it's their own fault to some extent."

==================

The goals of a marketplace system should be to:

1) Facilitate item/heirloom point transfer between players;
2) Encourage possessing things of value;
3) Encourage fairness and arms-length dealing.

The current marketplace system achieves only the first, most basic goal of a trade system. I propose a new, intuitive and easy to code overhaul of the marketplace:

Players should only exchange items/loom points for an amount of gold and the 5% tax on item exchanges should be lowered to 1%.

===PROS===  
- Eliminate the "lazy tax"

One problem with the current system is that understanding the implications of accepting any given offer requires a near encyclopedic knowledge of prior transactions and patch histories. Players are unable to sift through the labyrinthine amount of offers and requests, let alone draw a meaningful set of conclusions about item value from that data. Instead, both offerors and requesters understandably and lazily ask for another ~50k when they list an item.

To illustrate the difficulty in determining the actual value of an item, here is a look at some offers of a +3 Awlpike, the alphabetically highest item in my last searched category:

Bec de Corbin + 55k gold
Long Spear + 30k gold

Now the flipside. Requests for an Awlpike:

Bec + 19k gold [36k lazy tax]
Long Spear - 97k gold [127k lazy tax]

- Very easy to determine the relative value of items.

A gold-only system very clearly shows which items are valuable and helps players decide where to invest their heirloom points. An extreme example that most players already know: don't put heirloom points into crossbows and danish greatswords. But there are other over-supplied items as well. A simple price listing would reveal them with a glance, instead of hours of clicking through links on the market site.

- Reduce marketplace offer spam.

Currently, standard practice for someone trying to sell or purchase an item is to post a dozen offers or requests listing numerous combinations of heirloom points and gold. Each of these listings:

A: Require the listor to estimate the value of the item they wish to trade. A little experience with the system shows that players are not the most objective appraisers. Try the Awlpike example with any other item!

B: Require the listor to estimate the value of the other item they wish to trade for.

C: Add enough extra gold to ensure they won't feel cheated if someone accepts their trade.

D: Represents an identical valuation. Instead of players able to just list gold, that quantity has to be some creative amalgamation of gold, heirloom points, and items, carefully calibrated to meet the ideal.

===CONS===

- Some players resent change. Players who have invested hundreds of hours into figuring out how to game the market will not like this change.

- Some players think the devs are removing everything from the game and that more complexity is always good. This change will bring about simplicity.

- This change will complicate the ability of players to gift heirlooms by trading rocks or straw hats. But there is an easy workaround. Just make a post in the marketplace declaring your intention to trade to so-and-so player and then do it quickly. It isn't like there are many players spamming refresh on the marketplace waiting to grab a deal that an admin will just revert anyways.

- This change will require some additional coding. However the code for gold-only transfers is already in place.

===Reduce the Tax===

The 5% tax rate is probably too high for pure gold transfers. I suggest reducing it to 1-2%. I suspect but cannot prove that 99.99% of gold taken out of the system is done so via item repairs and not the tax on transactions so reducing the tax should not affect gameplay.

tl;dr The marketplace system is the Gordian Knot of cRPG but the devs are Hercules.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 04:11:57 am by Wrangham »

Offline DUKE DICKBUTT

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Re: Enforce Gold-Only Transactions
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2013, 04:19:11 am »
0
I say that the tax is fine, but we should get rid of booths, so the 6 guys that have one (or is it 5 guys and one guy has two booths?) stop poaching all the lower priced loom points.

Those booths really serve no purpose except for them to poach LPs and then list terrible deals.  They don't really even have any better visibility due to the booth, since everyone just searches for the things they want by name.

Offline Kafein

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Re: Enforce Gold-Only Transactions
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2013, 07:43:22 pm »
+2
Disallowing heirloom for heirloom trades won't magically make heirloom value information easily accessible for anybody. In fact, everybody would be forced to have encyclopedic knowledge of heirlooms to know their gold equivalent, instead of just exchanging one item they know for another item they can get decent info about.

It would also globally slow down market activity, as if you imagine the very frequent scenario of somebody wanting to trade say a 2h sword that person uses for another 2h sword they would prefer, having to do two trades instead of one introduces huge problems. First, two trades cannot be immediate, and people are left with gold they have no direct use of, which is bad if you don't have any fallback options for the item category you just sold. Second, there's no guarantee you will ever get your hands on the heirloom item you wanted, even after selling the item you had. In fact, if you don't want to be screwed over, you will have to create offers yourself for everything, which implies other people will maybe never accept your trades.

Offline LordRichrich

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Re: Enforce Gold-Only Transactions
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2013, 07:50:12 pm »
+1
I've never understood the idea of loom + gold myself.
It should be:
"I've got a +3 YOU want, and YOU'VE got a +3 I want. Lets just trade em?"

But instead looms have a price tied to them for god knows what reason and causes marketplace playing, where you can make 10k-70k for looming something else wants when they have something you want. It seems odd to me.

Offline Kafein

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Re: Enforce Gold-Only Transactions
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2013, 07:53:46 pm »
+4
I've never understood the idea of loom + gold myself.
It should be:
"I've got a +3 YOU want, and YOU'VE got a +3 I want. Lets just trade em?"

But instead looms have a price tied to them for god knows what reason and causes marketplace playing, where you can make 10k-70k for looming something else wants when they have something you want. It seems odd to me.

Back to woodstock with you !

Offline Gurnisson

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Re: Enforce Gold-Only Transactions
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2013, 08:12:15 pm »
+3
I've never understood the idea of loom + gold myself.
It should be:
"I've got a +3 YOU want, and YOU'VE got a +3 I want. Lets just trade em?"

But instead looms have a price tied to them for god knows what reason and causes marketplace playing, where you can make 10k-70k for looming something else wants when they have something you want. It seems odd to me.

An example. I have an item some other player want. I'm not particularly fond of the item he's offering, but can accept it if he adds cash. The other guy gets the item he wants, I probably end up with a profit when trading it again. Both happy, even though I never really wanted his item!
I voted Gurnisson cause of his fucking bendy pike, I swear noone can roflcopter stab like he can.

Offline Wrangham

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Re: Enforce Gold-Only Transactions
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2013, 08:21:40 pm »
-4
In fact, everybody would be forced to have encyclopedic knowledge of heirlooms to know their gold equivalent, instead of just exchanging one item they know for another item they can get decent info about.

I don't understand your point. In a gold only system you would open the marketplace and could just search by item and sort by price. The only way to get "decent info" in the current system is to compare the various offers of item + gold + heirloom points and make a judgment about what the offer is really worth. That may work for people with 7000 posts who have been playing for years but the system is not intuitive or easy to use.

Quote
It would also globally slow down market activity, as if you imagine the very frequent scenario of somebody wanting to trade say a 2h sword that person uses for another 2h sword they would prefer, having to do two trades instead of one introduces huge problems.

This scenario is actually incredibly infrequent. There are 46 different people trying to get rid of their 2h sword. The number of people currently wanting to trade a 2 handed sword for another 2 handed sword: only seven. Five of those seven want to trade their worthless Danish Greatswords for more valuable weapons; ie what they are really trying to do is get rid of a worthless item any way they can. Only 2 of them are trying to trade it for another. TWO PEOPLE out of FOURTY-SIX. 4.3%. Not "very frequent."

Examples:

Dach (downvoted the OP) adds a blanket 55k lazy tax to every item he requests in return for his 2h offers. Does Dach really think +3 Longsword and +3 Mallet are worth 55k more than their respective requests, or does he realize it is impossible to determine the value of the items he wants and just wants to be safe? I wonder why he doesn't like the proposed system. . .

Mwiw (downvoted the OP) adds a blanket 10k lazy tax in addition to his near-worthless Danish Greatsword and then makes 22 different, completely 1-sided offers. I wonder why he likes the old system? Because people are foolish enough to make these terrible trades that he knows he can get away with. Currently, the only way to know a Danish Greatsword is relatively poor value is to click through multiple pages of offers and requests, click through even more pages of offers and requests for whatever item is being requested in exchange, add a touch of patch history knowledge, and make an estimate.

Quote
First, two trades cannot be immediate, and people are left with gold they have no direct use of, which is bad if you don't have any fallback options for the item category you just sold.

I don't understand the difference between being left with an item you don't want (current) and being left with gold you can't use (proposed.) It isn't as though in the current system everyone is running around using Danish Greatsword + Crossbow thinking to themselves "I don't really like these items but I haven't traded them yet so I'll keep using them!"

Quote
Second, there's no guarantee you will ever get your hands on the heirloom item you wanted, even after selling the item you had. In fact, if you don't want to be screwed over, you will have to create offers yourself for everything, which implies other people will maybe never accept your trades.

I don't understand this point. Just post the item you want to sell for a price. If no one buys it then the item isn't worth as much as you think. Value is what people will pay for an item.

Offline Wrangham

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Re: Enforce Gold-Only Transactions
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2013, 08:24:15 pm »
-4
An example. I have an item some other player want.
So sell your item for X gold.

Quote
I'm not particularly fond of the item he's offering

So buy his item for X minus Y gold. You both get the items you want and you also make a net profit.

Quote

The other guy gets the item he wants, I probably end up with a profit when trading it again. Both happy, even though I never really wanted his item!

This is the hallmark of a terrible system. 2500 post count, multi-year veteran, game administrator can take advantage of the system to profit off of ignorance.

Offline Gurnisson

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Re: Enforce Gold-Only Transactions
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2013, 08:31:08 pm »
0
So sell your item for X gold.

So buy his item for X minus Y gold. You both get the items you want and you also make a net profit.

This is the hallmark of a terrible system. 2500 post count, multi-year veteran, game administrator can take advantage of the system to profit off of ignorance.

Wasn't talking about your system, I really don't care how the system works. I just explained LordRichRich why there's a ton of trades with gold on top for +3 items and not just straight trades :P
I voted Gurnisson cause of his fucking bendy pike, I swear noone can roflcopter stab like he can.

Offline Phew

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Re: Enforce Gold-Only Transactions
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2013, 08:52:01 pm »
+3
The problem with marketplace is that the VAST majority of listed offers are people just trying to increase their net worth, i.e. trading a crappy item for a good item or trading a good item for another good item+gold.

What about those of us that don't want to increase our net worth, just make a fair trade for a different item that maybe suits a new build/playstyle? Our offers get lost among all the "phishing" offers.

Let's say you are a relatively new player that put a lot of work into heirlooming a +3 Longsword, but you want to try out a +3 Danish for a while, so you offer up a straight trade. One of the "marketplace tycoons" with a booth/etc snatches up the trade immediately, with no intention of actually using the Longsword, just flipping it for profit. You just pissed away ~300k of your net worth, and probably didn't even realize it, because you'd have to have watched the marketplace for months to understand the relative value of these two items.

The OP's suggestion is just a way to make the relative value of items more apparent to players that don't necessarily watch the marketplace 24/7. Maybe not the best way to do it, but a solid suggestion nonetheless. The current system siphons wealth away from casual players that just want to try different builds/gear and concentrates it in the hands of a few of marketplace tycoons.  If the system allowed rentals, these tycoons could at least provide a useful service, but alas, the tycoons are just leeches right now.

Offline Gurnisson

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Re: Enforce Gold-Only Transactions
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2013, 08:56:57 pm »
+2
The problem is, the large booth would just fuel the rich people even more if it was just gold trades. Even now the large booth is just a possibility for the rich to become richer, but with the small sums of 50 k it's definitely not as breaking as 1.2kk. The large booth shines the higher the price, and that's why you see most of the booths being used to offer low amount of cash for low value items (heavy lance, danish, scimitar, crossbow etc.) or having several offers up for selling and buying loom points with a 20-25 k profit for each one traded. I think the large booth is silly, and if this was implemented, the large booth really would have to go. :P
I voted Gurnisson cause of his fucking bendy pike, I swear noone can roflcopter stab like he can.

Offline Falka

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Re: Enforce Gold-Only Transactions
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2013, 08:59:27 pm »
+1
One problem with the current system is that understanding the implications of accepting any given offer requires a near encyclopedic knowledge of prior transactions and patch histories. Players are unable to sift through the labyrinthine amount of offers and requests

- Some players resent change. Players who have invested hundreds of hours into figuring out how to game the market will not like this change.

Meh, it's completely not true. You definitely don't need to invest "hundreds of hours" to know how market works. Market rules are really simple (first rule of the market - to rule them all - make your own offers) and you don't need to know the value of every loom to make good deals.

Let's say you are a relatively new player that put a lot of work into heirlooming a +3 Longsword, but you want to try out a +3 Danish for a while, so you offer up a straight trade. One of the "marketplace tycoons" with a booth/etc snatches up the trade immediately, with no intention of actually using the Longsword, just flipping it for profit. You just pissed away ~300k of your net worth, and probably didn't even realize it, because you'd have to have watched the marketplace for months to understand the relative value of these two items.

You're right that market lets ppl gain gold and looms in a "fishy" way and plenty of ppl got fucked up by market sharks, but it's their own fault to some extent. It's really not that hard to figure out that most offered item on the market isn't worth as much as item which no one offers.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 09:11:59 pm by Falka »
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Offline Falka

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Re: Enforce Gold-Only Transactions
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2013, 09:10:24 pm »
0
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Offline Wrangham

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Re: Enforce Gold-Only Transactions
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2013, 09:14:27 pm »
-3
Meh, it's completely not true. You definitely don't need to invest "hundreds of hours" to know how market works. Market rules are really simple (first rule of the market - to rule them all - make your own offers) and you don't need to know the value of every loom to make good deals.

So when Dach posts 10 offers for a 2h weapon and requests X item + 55k gold for every offer that's a good deal? Or is Dach unable to determine neither the value of the items he has or the items he wants, and instead just adds 55k to make "good deals" and ensure he can't be cheated?

Quote
You're right that market lets ppl to gain gold and looms in a "fishy" way and plenty of ppl got fucked up by market sharks, but it's their own fault to some extent.

Hilarious. These are the people downvoting the OP. Acknowledge there's a problem, make conclusory statement that OP is wrong and move on. Please keep the -1s coming because it isn't like this thread is a well-intentioned attempt to identify a weak spot in cRPG and improve it.

Offline Wrangham

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Re: Enforce Gold-Only Transactions
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2013, 09:23:41 pm »
-3
Updated OP. It is a strange coincidence that everyone who has -1'd the idea has a lot to lose from improving the interface.