Nerf HX

[MrShine]

ITT:

- guys with horse archer avatars & horse archers in their signatures suggesting to buff HA
- guys who have never played HX before saying it's easy and calling for the removal of the entire class

Game balance discussion forum at its finest.

[vipere]

If they nerf Hx before nerfing 2H, it would be stupid.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

As a horsethrower I do not feel all that big a difference in the difficulty of fighting HXs and HAs, while they both need different playing styles they both appear to be somewhat balanced with eachother.

Also HAs, your class isn't even that fucking gimped, don't cry about HX when you're the second gayest thing in the game.

[Overdriven]

- guys with horse archer avatars & horse archers in their signatures suggesting to buff HA

No shit because we are the ones that play it regularly, thus understand it. But wait I forgot, only people who play another class and have 'tried' HA can claim to know what they are talking about.

[Dezilagel]

Horse ranged might be hard to play, but what's relevant from the perspective of someone trying to fight them is that they are almost impossible to play against if you have the "wrong" build/equipment.

As infantry, the best you can do if up against HA/HX is dodge like a maniac, pray you don't get hit, scramble for cover and wait for the flags (which means going through the same thing yet again). It requires no skill, is frustrating, tiresome and a bore for me and everyone spectating.

[CrazyCracka420]

Horse ranged might be hard to play, but what's relevant from the perspective of someone trying to fight them is that they are almost impossible to play against if you have the "wrong" build/equipment.

As infantry, the best you can do if up against HA/HX is dodge like a maniac, pray you don't get hit, scramble for cover and wait for the flags (which means going through the same thing yet again). It requires no skill, is frustrating, tiresome and a bore for me and everyone spectating.

Get throwing weapons, get xbow proficiency, get a shield, if you don't want to do that, then protect your own ranged from getting stabbed by lancers mid-round and they'd still be alive to help you with the horse archer/xbow.  Or wait behind buildings and pray that you don't get a sudden case of A.D.D. and go trying to run down a horse.

It's a team game, and having many classes with many different weapons and armor is what makes this game so great.  If you can't adapt to the conditions on the battlefield, then it's your problem, not the people using their strengths against your weaknesses.

[MrShine]

Horse ranged might be hard to play, but what's relevant from the perspective of someone trying to fight them is that they are almost impossible to play against if you have the "wrong" build/equipment.

As infantry, the best you can do if up against HA/HX is dodge like a maniac, pray you don't get hit, scramble for cover and wait for the flags (which means going through the same thing yet again). It requires no skill, is frustrating, tiresome and a bore for me and everyone spectating.

This is a bad argument, because you're basically saying that someone else's build is invalid because your own build can't defeat it.  That's like if I would build my character 3/36 with a scythe, and then complaining that tin cans should be nerfed because all my swings bounce off them and they are impossible for me to kill.  Ranged cav is very strong against a lot of classes... but there are also plenty of classes that are very effective against them.

It's also a bad argument because until cav move slower than infantry on the ground, ranged cavalry will always be nearly impossible to engage in melee... as they should be since that's what they were designed to do.  No amount of nerfs to damage & accuracy will ever "fix" the "problem" of infantry being disadvantaged against ranged cav.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Horse ranged might be hard to play, but what's relevant from the perspective of someone trying to fight them is that they are almost impossible to play against if you have the "wrong" build/equipment.

As infantry, the best you can do if up against HA/HX is dodge like a maniac, pray you don't get hit, scramble for cover and wait for the flags (which means going through the same thing yet again). It requires no skill, is frustrating, tiresome and a bore for me and everyone spectating.

This is why horseranged should always be weak and underpowered (which they currently are), there is no way for it to not hard counter infantry. And Shine, a 3/36 with a scythe can defeat tincans, it's just hard, hard counters are horrible game mechanics, soft counters are good.

[MrShine]

This is why horseranged should always be weak and underpowered (which they currently are), there is no way for it to not hard counter infantry. And Shine, a 3/36 with a scythe can defeat tincans, it's just hard, hard counters are horrible game mechanics, soft counters are good.

There are plenty of things that happen in battle that don't give ranged cav a hard counter on infantry.  Distractions, terrain, hiding infantry, limited supply of arrows, shields, MOTF etc all kill or stymie ranged cav. 

1v1 with open terrain full stacks of projectiles & no time limit, and yes the ranged cav should win against melee almost every time, and that will never change until ranged cav gets removed, which I don't think should happen because of all the things that make that perfect storm NOT happen in battle.

(also given the choice of being a standard 2H vs a HA in battle, or a 3/36 build against a full tin can, I'd take the standard 2H vs HA to be far less aggravating )

[Dezilagel]

Get throwing weapons, get xbow proficiency, get a shield, if you don't want to do that, then protect your own ranged from getting stabbed by lancers mid-round and they'd still be alive to help you with the horse archer/xbow.  Or wait behind buildings and pray that you don't get a sudden case of A.D.D. and go trying to run down a horse.

It's a team game, and having many classes with many different weapons and armor is what makes this game so great.  If you can't adapt to the conditions on the battlefield, then it's your problem, not the people using their strengths against your weaknesses.

A shield doesn't counter HA/HX, it merely prolongs the process.

And how does waiting behind buildings win me rounds or help me kill the HA/HX any better than what I already explained? As I said, the best I can do as infantry is to wait for flags while trying to get pelted as little as possible.

Sure having many different classes is great. But when you have classes like HA/HX, who can only be fought using ranged weaponry, doesn't that work against that idea?

Suppose the entire enemy team is HA/HX. What the fuck am I supposed to do as melee infantry other than repec into something that can do ranged?
 
The only thing that keeps horse ranged bearable is that there aren't more of them, and that now that their numbers are becoming a real problem I don't find it strange that people are getting vocal about it.

This is a bad argument, because you're basically saying that someone else's build is invalid because your own build can't defeat it.  That's like if I would build my character 3/36 with a scythe, and then complaining that tin cans should be nerfed because all my swings bounce off them and they are impossible for me to kill.  Ranged cav is very strong against a lot of classes... but there are also plenty of classes that are very effective against them.

Oh but I do think that tincans (well, armor rather) is bullshit. You shouldn't be able to stack armor so that you can shrug off weaker swings. Melee combat should be way more deadly.
That said, the tincan doesn't hard counter the scythe user like a HX would do. Through patience, skill and aimed held swings you can very much defeat him although it would be really difficult.

It's also a bad argument because until cav move slower than infantry on the ground, ranged cavalry will always be nearly impossible to engage in melee... as they should be since that's what they were designed to do.  No amount of nerfs to damage & accuracy will ever "fix" the "problem" of infantry being disadvantaged against ranged cav.

Why?

Realism? I don't care about it, I want solid gameplay. If I want realism I'll just crawl out of the basement.

Gameplay design? Well, then that's shitty design imho since as I've already explained hard counters are bullshit.


In battle, where the objective is to kill the opposing team horse ranged is complete bullshit to me, since as infantry there is practically nothing I can do against them.

[CrazyCracka420]

Look dezi if you don't want to adapt (protecting your own ranged, or waiting for flags), and you don't want to make a build that can deal with them (shield for defensive protection, some sort of ranged like throwing for offensive stopping power), then I don't think the next logical conclusion should be that you remove them from the game.  Your weakness is that you have to be right next to someone to hurt them, if someone is ranged, they can hit you before you can hit them.  If they are faster than you (riding a horse) then you have no ability to catch them.

That is your build you choose to make, you should have realized what your strengths and weaknesses were before making the character.  Or suck it up like an adult and play the video game. 

[Teeth]

Horseranged has both a mobility and ranged advantage. Footmen can't do shit against them, cavalry can't either. The only things that can do anything at all against horse ranged is other horse ranged or ground ranged, without neither of these being a perfect counter. An archer versus a horse crossbowmen hardly puts the archer at much of an advantage. Then there is the fact that horse ranged can just evade foot ranged and mostly other horse ranged.

The chances of horse ranged being alive at the end of the round are a lot bigger than foot ranged. The chances of this foot ranged to actually beat the horse ranged in the round ends are not that big. Combined this means that there usually is horse range alive at the end of the round without there being anyone who can counter it. Standing behind a shield or waiting behind a building is not the same as countering it. Then a 100 people watch some troll horse ranged shoot at people for 2 minutes without anyone having any hope on him changing the outcome of the round. It is silly and boring and it is simply delaying. Now if there are 1 or 2 horse ranged a server, this doesn't happen that much. When there are 5-8 this happens every round, which is the past few weeks on EU_1. It is fucking game breaking. 3% of the server manages to prolong a lot of rounds by 25%, which is plain, boring waiting for the other 97%.

When a class becomes so popular it becomes gamebreaking, you nerf it. They did it with one half of horse ranged, horse archers, which lets face it, are a lot weaker than HX. They should do it to the other half of horse ranged as well. I think there is 1 horse archer for every 5 horse crossbowmen I see. The unbalance within horse ranged is besides the horse ranged problem though.

Horse ranged does simply not fit with battle. Don't you even dare to bring up MotF to the delay problem, because it usually takes a long time before they spawn. I think MotF should spawn as soon as there are 3 players left on either side. This simply speeds up the end round process. If this is deemed to radical, make it spawn when there are only cavalry players left or when one team has more than three times the amount of players left. Modifying the MotF system is key for integrating horse ranged into battle without them being a burden to everyone but the guy playing it. Still HX should be equalized with HA.

[Dezilagel]

Look dezi if you don't want to adapt (protecting your own ranged, or waiting for flags), and you don't want to make a build that can deal with them (shield for defensive protection, some sort of ranged like throwing for offensive stopping power), then I don't think the next logical conclusion should be that you remove them from the game.  Your weakness is that you have to be right next to someone to hurt them, if someone is ranged, they can hit you before you can hit them.  If they are faster than you (riding a horse) then you have no ability to catch them.

That is your build you choose to make, you should have realized what your strengths and weaknesses were before making the character.  Or suck it up like an adult and play the video game.

Okay, let's do this bullet point style then:

Protecting your own ranged: What if there is no ranged to protect? Especially on smaller servers (which is what I play on mostly since my comp can't handle EU1 clusterfucks at all) this is a frequent occurrence.

Waiting for flags: I explained in my first post why I think this is a shitty scenario, why it's boring both for me and for everyone else who has to wait and why it's not fun or requires any skill at all from my part. Sure I might get lucky, survive all the bolts/arrows and bumps and get the flag but it's going to take a long time and is not fun at all for me since i get to do nothing about it.

Shield: Doesn't help me fight the HA/HX in any way. Just makes the process of killing me harder. I played a hoplite up until recently precisely because I wanted to be able to fend of

Throwing: That's ranged. I don't think you should be forced to get ranged to be able to fight against everyone in the game.

Yes, I am pretty much a melee purist. I played the melee server more than the regular ones when it was up. And as melee infantry everyone can fight me, but I have hard counters in HA/HX. The only reason I can have a good time playing as infantry is because there are others choosing not to play as HA/HX (or running ranged to an extent, but that's much better now).

Up until recently I played as a hoplite in attempt to fend of ranged and cavalry. Problem was "fighting" enemies such as HA/HX was just a huge waste of time and I see a lot more melee action now just by bumrushing for the melee with super-light armor and weapon.

as said, I can understand it being fun and challenging to play as HA/HX, even though it's not at all to my taste. What I'm saying is that there is not under any circumstances fun to fight against them when not being able to fight back or even run away effectively.

[Rumblood]

Every class should be on even footing with every other? Don't play Planetside or any other game with rock/paper/scissors classes (and there are a ton of them). At least here, when your sword hits an HX/HA, it will obliterate them. Try a game where a class does no damage against another because of RPS mechanics.

[CrazyCracka420]

Okay, let's do this bullet point style then:

Protecting your own ranged: What if there is no ranged to protect? Especially on smaller servers (which is what I play on mostly since my comp can't handle EU1 clusterfucks at all) this is a frequent occurrence.

Waiting for flags: I explained in my first post why I think this is a shitty scenario, why it's boring both for me and for everyone else who has to wait and why it's not fun or requires any skill at all from my part. Sure I might get lucky, survive all the bolts/arrows and bumps and get the flag but it's going to take a long time and is not fun at all for me since i get to do nothing about it.

Waiting for flags is a valid tactic to win, and I don't feel waiting a minute or two for a round to end is a big deal.

Shield: Doesn't help me fight the HA/HX in any way. Just makes the process of killing me harder. I played a hoplite up until recently precisely because I wanted to be able to fend of

Shield helps protect you from being a victim to ranged, it's a defensive measure, not a way to kill them (this is obvious, you're just reiterating what I said)

Throwing: That's ranged. I don't think you should be forced to get ranged to be able to fight against everyone in the game.

You don't get throwing to be able to fight everyone else in the game, you get ranged to hit people from a distance, who you otherwise wouldn't have been able to engage.  You chose to be pure melee (is my guess) so that you could either get more IF, or more WPF in your 2h (assuming) proficiency.  Instead of giving up some IF and/or 2h WPF to be able to get PT and throwing WPF, you choose to be a better melee person.  That was your choice, but it gives you greater weaknesses to ranged or people who are faster/more mobile than you.

Yes, I am pretty much a melee purist. I played the melee server more than the regular ones when it was up. And as melee infantry everyone can fight me, but I have hard counters in HA/HX. The only reason I can have a good time playing as infantry is because there are others choosing not to play as HA/HX (or running ranged to an extent, but that's much better now).

Yes, you have a very limited set of strengths and weaknesses.  You can get hit by people from a distance and have no ability to hit them back.  The same is true when ground archers are shooting at you from across the map.   I fail to see how this is an argument for nerfing someone who is your natural counter.

Up until recently I played as a hoplite in attempt to fend of ranged and cavalry. Problem was "fighting" enemies such as HA/HX was just a huge waste of time and I see a lot more melee action now just by bumrushing for the melee with super-light armor and weapon.

as said, I can understand it being fun and challenging to play as HA/HX, even though it's not at all to my taste. What I'm saying is that there is not under any circumstances fun to fight against them when not being able to fight back or even run away effectively.

That's just, like, your opinion man.  You know what I do with horse xbows/archers?  I avoid them as a lancer cavalry, and when I'm on my footman (2h/xbow) I shoot at their horses.  I'm pretty effective at taking down cavalry, as are most archers and xbows (and throwers when horses get too close).  I don't feel that horse ranged classes are a problem in the game by any stretch of the imagination.  Stick closer to your own team, especially ranged classes, and you will be able to enable your teammates to take out the enemy horsemen.  Teamwork and tactics are your natural counters to cavalry of any kind.