Author Topic: Banner "balancer", valour, multiplier & looms  (Read 3545 times)

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Offline Joker86

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Re: Banner "balancer", valour, multiplier & looms
« Reply #60 on: April 09, 2013, 12:15:46 pm »
+1
next time im going to do a post, ill tell joker and he will do it for me. :D great post.

Better don't, the length will deterr most people.

Who have only a very limited attention span and intellect.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Tomas

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Re: Banner "balancer", valour, multiplier & looms
« Reply #61 on: April 09, 2013, 02:42:33 pm »
+2
Banner Balance:
- Its needed so that clans can play together.  Strat is not a valid alternative for everybody as it requires far more effort than a lot of players can manage.  just look at how many clans don't play strat at all.
- It does not need to be so high.  I think its capped at 40% of your teams levels atm and that is just too much. 30% or even 25% would be much better and leave more room for multiple clans on each team.

Multipliers:
- Are needed to focus the team on an objective.  Conquest mode is merely changing the objective, it doesn't give any incentive to go for the objective on its own
- However there are better systems that need investigating and testing in cRPG so that the best can be picked for  :wink:
- Personally I would like to test multipliers only effecting XP gain with gold a static time based gain (and possibly a smaller win bonus)
- Another alternatice would be to cap the multiplier at x2 but double the base gain.  The average multiplier would go up slightly whilst the max multiplier would decrease

Valour:
- Is a massive pile of crap.  It rewards the best players by allowing them to use more expensive gear on average thereby increasing the gap between them and everybody else even further.
- Valour should at least be changed to effect XP only or even better it should be removed.  Good players do not need a reward.

Looms:
- Are nice but i'm hoping  :wink: will be using a trade off system rather than the current improvement system.
- Would be interesting to test such a system in cRPG.  We already have 6+ extra versions of every weapon so why not turn that into a simple speed vs damage trade off system

Upkeep:
- needs changing as it encourages leeching too much.  People want to make money so use peasant gear but why even bother fighting if you are stuck with peasant gear.
- the simple change would be to reduce upkeep on all items by ~250 gold.  Then low tier and some mid tier items become free to use whilst only the higher tier gear has upkeep.

Characters (whilst i'm at it):
- need adjusting to reduce the gap between low and high level players
- starting all chars at 18/18 and then halving all the passive stat gains would work best for me.  So an 21/21 char (gaining 21HP) becomes a 36/36 char (gaining 18HP) staying roughly the same.  Skills would require 6 attribute points per level not 3 to again re-balance. So 21/21 with 7 points in IF becomes 36/36 with 6 points in IF also staying roughly the same.  The main difference is that half the passive attribute gain is present at level 1.
- This also reduces the impact of extreme builds and high level chars on the game slightly.  33/3 with 30HP gained becomes 48/18 with 24HP gained

EDIT: Post edited to remove references to  :wink:   :D
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 06:45:10 pm by Tomas »

Offline Joker86

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Re: Banner "balancer", valour, multiplier & looms
« Reply #62 on: April 09, 2013, 05:03:00 pm »
+1
Banner Balance:
- Its needed so that clans can play together.  Strat is not a valid alternative for everybody as it requires far more effort than a lot of players can manage.  just look at how many clans don't play strat at all.
- It does not need to be so high.  I think its capped at 40% of your teams levels atm and that is just too much. 30% or even 25% would be much better and leave more room for multiple clans on each team.

I think a fixed percentage is too unflexible. If there is only one clan with several players on, the banner balance should be 0%. In any other case the smallest group of clan players decides. The "team balance value" for clan groups should be exponential, and if it already is, the value growth has to be raised. Five clan players can very well equal twelve random players. You want to play together? Fine. But single players also have a right on fun. So deal with a huge crowd as enemies if you think you need teamspeak to beat a few pubs.

Multipliers:
- Are needed to focus the team on an objective.  Conquest mode is merely changing the objective, it doesn't give any incentive to go for the objective on its own
- However there are better systems that need investigating and testing in cRPG so that the best can be picked for M:BG
- Personally I would like to test multipliers only effecting XP gain with gold a static time based gain (and possibly a smaller win bonus)
- Another alternatice would be to cap the multiplier at x2 but double the base gain.  The average multiplier would go up slightly whilst the max multiplier would decrease

1st: Conquest mode is merely changing the objective and doesn't give any incentive to go for the objective? What the heck? How can you state something like that without even bothering to explain it? Because, you know, the invention of the car did not raise the mobility of the people. World war 2 never happened. I can fly.
2nd: which are the better system? I'd like to hear it, because I could not think of any.
3rd: Sounds okay, but honestly the whole multiplier and upkeep system has to go.
4th: Multiplier has to go. Definitely. For good.

Valour:
- Is a massive pile of crap.  It rewards the best players by allowing them to use more expensive gear on average thereby increasing the gap between them and everybody else even further.
- Valour should at least be changed to effect XP only or even better it should be removed.  Good players do not need a reward.

Agreed.


Looms:
- Are nice but i'm glad M:BG will be using a trade off system rather than the current improvement system.
- Would be interesting to test such a system in cRPG.  We already have 6+ extra versions of every weapon so why not turn that into a simple speed vs damage trade off system

The trade off system would require the double amount of looms, as you would have two directions to go, either the "raise speed" or "raise dmg" direction. And for every additional trade off pair added you have six more weapons added. So I doubt they will implement it, although I basically agree. P.S.: You probably broke the rules of NDA with your loom statement  :P

Upkeep:
- needs changing as it encourages leeching too much.  People want to make money so use peasant gear but why even bother fighting if you are stuck with peasant gear.
- the simple change would be to reduce upkeep on all items by ~250 gold.  Then low tier and some mid tier items become free to use whilst only the higher tier gear has upkeep.


I think a simple reduction won't help much, as it will only raise the people's expectations towards the gear they will be able to afford, and they will leech the same way, just to be able to wear slightly better equipment than before. That fucking, incredibly idiotic upkeep system has simply to go. Replace it with a system where the soft level cap is raised a bit, but you must spend skill points to be able to wear more expensive gear. Either have a good character with poor gear, a character with great gear but poor skills, or a character with decent skills and decent gear. No time limit on your favourite expensive gear, no "losing" something in a game (games ALWAYS work with rewards as motivation, and not with missing punishment  :rolleyes: ), and no effectivity difference between different characters of the same level but with different gold budgets. And finally the value of some items will REALLY work as a restriction, in difference to now where you need to sell a loom point on the market and be able to wear the most expensive gear for a really long time. The system is so flawed, I could go on for hours about it.

Characters (whilst i'm at it):
- need adjusting to reduce the gap between low and high level players
- starting all chars at 18/18 and then halving all the passive stat gains would work best for me.  So an 21/21 char (gaining 21HP) becomes a 36/36 char (gaining 18HP) staying roughly the same.  Skills would require 6 attribute points per level not 3 to again re-balance. So 21/21 with 7 points in IF becomes 36/36 with 6 points in IF also staying roughly the same.  The main difference is that half the passive attribute gain is present at level 1.
- This also reduces the impact of extreme builds and high level chars on the game slightly.  33/3 with 30HP gained becomes 48/18 with 24HP gained

I never experienced the level cap as a problem. You can get level 20+ quickly, and then you can already contribute something. The whole motivation to level your character up comes from the level differences and the advantages they bring. Reducing it would lower the incentive to work towards a certain goal. For some people, who also enjoy "Counter Strike" like games, this sounds nice. But I think most people here on cRPG prefer a certain extend of grind, and nothing is more motivating than grind with a noticeable purpose. If anything, I would be for a slight increase of the level cap, to something between 33 and 36.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Tomas

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Re: Banner "balancer", valour, multiplier & looms
« Reply #63 on: April 09, 2013, 07:15:14 pm »
+1
I think a fixed percentage is too unflexible. If there is only one clan with several players on, the banner balance should be 0%. In any other case the smallest group of clan players decides. The "team balance value" for clan groups should be exponential, and if it already is, the value growth has to be raised. Five clan players can very well equal twelve random players. You want to play together? Fine. But single players also have a right on fun. So deal with a huge crowd as enemies if you think you need teamspeak to beat a few pubs.

Sorry but that sounds crap.  I and many others specifically play or continue to play cRPG because it is geared so much towards team play.  I come online, see a friend and can immediately play along side them with the exception of the odd round. 

A potential system I would be interested to test is banner balance set equal to however many players/levels the 4th largest clan on the server has (with a min of say 10%).  So a typical 40vs40 on EU1 would only balance 4ish players together per clan, but if the 4th largest clan has 8 players online then banner balance will increase.  This means clans can casually play together all the time in small numbers but they can only seriously stack 1 team on a server if they have other clans to fight against.

1st: Conquest mode is merely changing the objective and doesn't give any incentive to go for the objective? What the heck? How can you state something like that without even bothering to explain it? Because, you know, the invention of the car did not raise the mobility of the people. World war 2 never happened. I can fly.

Ok, Conquest Mode with no multiplier.  What exactly is it that causes me to want to actually go to the flag (or whatever) when I can have just as much fun running around simply killing things? 

It is the multiplier that rewards people for pursuing the objective.  An objective without an incentive would just not work.

The trade off system would require the double amount of looms, as you would have two directions to go, either the "raise speed" or "raise dmg" direction. And for every additional trade off pair added you have six more weapons added. So I doubt they will implement it, although I basically agree. P.S.: You probably broke the rules of NDA with your loom statement  :P

Actually you are wrong.
- Right now we have -3,-2,-1,0,+1,+2,+3 loom levels for most items.  So 7 in total
- Under the trade off system you would need the base item (0) plus the speed looms (+1,+2+3) and the damage looms (+1,+2,+3).  So 7 in total
- Applying +1 Damage to a +1 speed loom would just result in a 0 loom state since its a trade off.

I edited my post for you though :D
 
I think a simple reduction won't help much, as it will only raise the people's expectations towards the gear they will be able to afford, and they will leech the same way, just to be able to wear slightly better equipment than before. That fucking, incredibly idiotic upkeep system has simply to go. Replace it with a system where the soft level cap is raised a bit, but you must spend skill points to be able to wear more expensive gear. Either have a good character with poor gear, a character with great gear but poor skills, or a character with decent skills and decent gear. No time limit on your favourite expensive gear, no "losing" something in a game (games ALWAYS work with rewards as motivation, and not with missing punishment  :rolleyes: ), and no effectivity difference between different characters of the same level but with different gold budgets. And finally the value of some items will REALLY work as a restriction, in difference to now where you need to sell a loom point on the market and be able to wear the most expensive gear for a really long time. The system is so flawed, I could go on for hours about it.

I did say it was the simplest solution, not necessarily the best :)  Your idea could work though.  At the very least an armour skill for the high tier armours/gloves/boots/helmets could be added fairly easily I think

I never experienced the level cap as a problem. You can get level 20+ quickly, and then you can already contribute something. The whole motivation to level your character up comes from the level differences and the advantages they bring. Reducing it would lower the incentive to work towards a certain goal. For some people, who also enjoy "Counter Strike" like games, this sounds nice. But I think most people here on cRPG prefer a certain extend of grind, and nothing is more motivating than grind with a noticeable purpose.

The grind is still there.  A level 30 char is still better than a level 1 char.  So what's the issue?

This just means new/retiring players start with something a bit more survivable than the current 3/3 peasant.

If anything, I would be for a slight increase of the level cap, to something between 33 and 36.

Not sure what you mean by this as we already have level 36 players and as far as i understand 37 is perfectly possible for people if they grind long enough

Offline Kafein

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Re: Banner "balancer", valour, multiplier & looms
« Reply #64 on: April 09, 2013, 07:58:46 pm »
+4
Multipliers:
- Are needed to focus the team on an objective.  Conquest mode is merely changing the objective, it doesn't give any incentive to go for the objective on its own
- However there are better systems that need investigating and testing in cRPG so that the best can be picked for  :wink:
- Personally I would like to test multipliers only effecting XP gain with gold a static time based gain (and possibly a smaller win bonus)
- Another alternatice would be to cap the multiplier at x2 but double the base gain.  The average multiplier would go up slightly whilst the max multiplier would decrease

Valour:
- Is a massive pile of crap.  It rewards the best players by allowing them to use more expensive gear on average thereby increasing the gap between them and everybody else even further.
- Valour should at least be changed to effect XP only or even better it should be removed.  Good players do not need a reward.

The problem of the multiplier is that what you get is dependant on your team, not on you. You may be saving the day individually from time to time but being punished because the enemy team is better than your team no matter what you have done yourself is unneeded, hence why valour and score-based rewards are a much better system. Furthermore, it encourages everything but fair and fun play. Nobody wants to camp the hill, they just do it because that will make them win. Nobody wants to delay, but that x5 is one hell of a good reason to do it.

Now, basing everything on individual effectiveness is highly unfair to new/bad players, so I think the ratio between the maximum and the minimum rewards shouldn't exceed 3/2 . 5 is way, way too much anyway.

Offline EyeBeat

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Re: Banner "balancer", valour, multiplier & looms
« Reply #65 on: April 10, 2013, 02:57:48 am »
+2
Turn off banner balance till a servers "playing not spectating" population is more than 40 players.  Thanks in adavance.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 03:01:50 am by EyeBeat »
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Banner "balancer", valour, multiplier & looms
« Reply #66 on: April 10, 2013, 09:40:20 am »
+1
Sorry but that sounds crap.  I and many others specifically play or continue to play cRPG because it is geared so much towards team play.  I come online, see a friend and can immediately play along side them with the exception of the odd round. 

A potential system I would be interested to test is banner balance set equal to however many players/levels the 4th largest clan on the server has (with a min of say 10%).  So a typical 40vs40 on EU1 would only balance 4ish players together per clan, but if the 4th largest clan has 8 players online then banner balance will increase.  This means clans can casually play together all the time in small numbers but they can only seriously stack 1 team on a server if they have other clans to fight against.

This is basically very similar to my proposal with the smallest possible clan stack. And I don't see where my idea with increasing the value of a clan group does not go along with your ideas.

Ok, Conquest Mode with no multiplier.  What exactly is it that causes me to want to actually go to the flag (or whatever) when I can have just as much fun running around simply killing things?

It is the multiplier that rewards people for pursuing the objective.  An objective without an incentive would just not work.

Why do you think I would seriously propose... well... implementing conquest mode, then removing the multiplier system and replacing it with... nothing? Of course there should be a new reward system, and it could very well be connected to the flag. Actually I already suggested to make the reward system based on your class. So that infantry for example get most rewards for capping the flag, while archers and cavalry get most points for kills in the flag area. You know, something like that.


Actually you are wrong.
- Right now we have -3,-2,-1,0,+1,+2,+3 loom levels for most items.  So 7 in total
- Under the trade off system you would need the base item (0) plus the speed looms (+1,+2+3) and the damage looms (+1,+2,+3).  So 7 in total
- Applying +1 Damage to a +1 speed loom would just result in a 0 loom state since its a trade off.

I edited my post for you though :D

Okay, I was wrong. But this time you are as well, unless you proposal is already for a system without upkeep and degrading weapons.
 
The grind is still there.  A level 30 char is still better than a level 1 char.  So what's the issue?

Less differences between levels = less incentive to level up. Which means less motivation. But I admit, this is a matter of personal preference.

Not sure what you mean by this as we already have level 36 players and as far as i understand 37 is perfectly possible for people if they grind long enough

During all the time cRPG is running now (with the new system) nobody has reached lvl 36 yet. I meant raising the soft cap from 30/31 to 33/34 or 36/37 (the second number being the level to retire). To raise the differences between the players. So basically the opposite of what you want.  :wink:
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Tomas

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Re: Banner "balancer", valour, multiplier & looms
« Reply #67 on: April 10, 2013, 10:28:02 am »
+1
This is basically very similar to my proposal with the smallest possible clan stack. And I don't see where my idea with increasing the value of a clan group does not go along with your ideas.

I understood your idea to have no banner balance at all below a certain point.  Mine always has at least a small amount of banner balance.

Why do you think I would seriously propose... well... implementing conquest mode, then removing the multiplier system and replacing it with... nothing? Of course there should be a new reward system, and it could very well be connected to the flag. Actually I already suggested to make the reward system based on your class. So that infantry for example get most rewards for capping the flag, while archers and cavalry get most points for kills in the flag area. You know, something like that.

And what about infantry that protect their own ranged or take out 5 enemies not near the flag which allows the rest of the team to cap the flag more easily.  There are many ways to help the team and rewarding them all would get complicated. Also what about new players?  If xp/gold gain reverts to being performance based then it will be even harder for new players to get into the game.  Bonuses need to be team performance based not individual.  For individuals i would prefer to see more e-peen stats.  Rankings for most head shots, best K:D, most melee kills with a 2H sword, etc.  The top of each ranking can get an automatic title.  Obviously "Hero" would have to be reserved for the most kills with a 2H sword :D

Okay, I was wrong. But this time you are as well, unless you proposal is already for a system without upkeep and degrading weapons.

Good point, upkeep would need to be replaced.  You've already solved that with the armour skill idea though :D
 
During all the time cRPG is running now (with the new system) nobody has reached lvl 36 yet. I meant raising the soft cap from 30/31 to 33/34 or 36/37 (the second number being the level to retire). To raise the differences between the players. So basically the opposite of what you want.  :wink:

I'm pretty sure someone has hit 36 by now. Can't remember where i saw it but possibly Canary

Offline Sniger

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Re: Banner "balancer", valour, multiplier & looms
« Reply #68 on: April 10, 2013, 12:36:46 pm »
+1
just want to say I totally enjoy reading all this. tnx for awesome debating, suggestions/ideas and a good tone :)

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Re: Banner "balancer", valour, multiplier & looms
« Reply #69 on: April 10, 2013, 12:38:56 pm »
0
WoT/Wall of text/War of Text  8-)
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Re: Banner "balancer", valour, multiplier & looms
« Reply #70 on: April 10, 2013, 01:35:40 pm »
0
I understood your idea to have no banner balance at all below a certain point.  Mine always has at least a small amount of banner balance.

Well, I guess basically we agree then, it's only a question of fine tuning to get us both satisfied.

And what about infantry that protect their own ranged or take out 5 enemies not near the flag which allows the rest of the team to cap the flag more easily.  There are many ways to help the team and rewarding them all would get complicated. Also what about new players?  If xp/gold gain reverts to being performance based then it will be even harder for new players to get into the game.  Bonuses need to be team performance based not individual.  For individuals i would prefer to see more e-peen stats.  Rankings for most head shots, best K:D, most melee kills with a 2H sword, etc.  The top of each ranking can get an automatic title.  Obviously "Hero" would have to be reserved for the most kills with a 2H sword :D

I think the whole reward matter is incredibly complicated. Next to balancing throwing weapons it's the game design question in cRPG I am most afraid of. To be honest, I don't really dare to touch it. I just want to say that conquering/protecting the flag should definitely matter. In whatever way you do it.

I'm pretty sure someone has hit 36 by now. Can't remember where i saw it but possibly Canary

Doesn't the Hall of Fame say that El_Supreme is the highest level character with level 35.28?

I am thinking more of having level 33 or 36 be as common as level 30 or 31 are nowadays. Not only for the gameplay and motivation aspect the level differences bring, but also for the sake of a higher build variety. Many classes have a really narrow choice of viable builds, which is incredibly sad IMHO.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Banner "balancer", valour, multiplier & looms
« Reply #71 on: April 10, 2013, 01:39:01 pm »
0
Doesn't the Hall of Fame say that El_Supreme is the highest level character with level 35.28?

That's the highest character that retired. Afaik there are a handful of level 36 people right now. But nobody ever planned it.

Offline Joker86

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Re: Banner "balancer", valour, multiplier & looms
« Reply #72 on: April 10, 2013, 03:27:32 pm »
+1
Ah okay. Now that's what the hall of fame is for.

Still I think it would be nice to be able to reach lvl 33 or 36, even if you do have a job, friends and a partner.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Re: Banner "balancer", valour, multiplier & looms
« Reply #73 on: April 10, 2013, 03:53:24 pm »
+1
WoT/Wall of text/War of Text  8-)

lol now I just read my last post again and it seem abit sarcastic but I wasn't! I meant it and I don't think its wall of text, I think this is a very healthy debate, a debate that we cannot avoid any longer. and the two fellas here discussing forth and back (+ your awesome posts JP) I think is really awesome. I already said that I honestly have no idea how to fix - but that doesn't matter cus there are 2 ppl who have great insight and more than plenty of just as great ideas (imo)

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Re: Banner "balancer", valour, multiplier & looms
« Reply #74 on: April 11, 2013, 12:12:52 am »
0
on the NA side: FFC_Aldogalus_MB is level 36.
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