[Stats] Strength Passive Still Too Potent

[Malaclypse]

People who are calling my idea a nerf to Strength builds aren't getting the point. It's a nerf to the Stat, a buff to the Skill, so it works more like Athletics and Agility (you gain speed from agility, but you gain more speed from athletics). It ought to be the same way with Strength/Ironflesh. You invest more, you get more returns.

Right now, if you make a 21 STR/7 IF character, you have a total of 70hp. 18 of that comes from Strength, which you need to get PS anyhow, and 14 of it comes from Ironflesh which is maxed out.

[DaveUKR]

People who are calling my idea a nerf to Strength builds aren't getting the point. It's a nerf to the Stat, a buff to the Skill, so it works more like Athletics and Agility (you gain speed from agility, but you gain more speed from athletics). It ought to be the same way with Strength/Ironflesh. You invest more, you get more returns.

Right now, if you make a 21 STR/7 IF character, you have a total of 70hp. 18 of that comes from Strength, which you need to get PS anyhow, and 14 of it comes from Ironflesh which is maxed out.

But on the other hand: the archer with 18 str and 0 IF has a total of 53 HP, so the difference between them is ~33%, if you remove any bonus from strength without buffing IF the difference will be 40% (35<->49 hp) which we don't need. So basically it will be just a regular buff to high strength 2handers, enough said.

Also it will require weeks of hard work to balance things, while it's hard to balance what we have now at least.

My suggestion is simplier. Options what to do (pick one or maybe suggest something else, or even mix them):

1) Remove the wpp per level. The only way to get wpf is to use WM. Scale WM bonuses to what we have now at 6-7 WM, so those who have less WM will have less wpf in future, more WM - more wpf
2) Give much less wpp per level (like 2-3 points -> 55-75 wpf at level 30 without any WM at all), scale WM bonuses
3) Make AGI giving wpp (lets say medium agi is 18 or 21, it's from 11.5 to 13.5 wpp per agi, lets take 12 wpp per 1 agi). So the guy with 18 agility and no WM will have 216 wpp (105 wpf) (18 agility x 12wpp), the guy with 30 agility will have 360 wpp (129 wpf), the guy with 3 agi will have 36 wpf (58 wpf with 1 WM). Sounds fair to me.

There will be no need to nerf strength bonuses, or to nerf IF, people will have to sacrifice at least something from it to get agi or WM

[Rhaelys]

But on the other hand: the archer with 18 str and 0 IF has a total of 53 HP, so the difference between them is ~33%, if you remove any bonus from strength without buffing IF the difference will be 40% (35<->49 hp) which we don't need. So basically it will be just a regular buff to high strength 2handers, enough said.

Also it will require weeks of hard work to balance things, while it's hard to balance what we have now at least.

My suggestion is simplier. Options what to do (pick one or maybe suggest something else, or even mix them):

1) Remove the wpp per level. The only way to get wpf is to use WM. Scale WM bonuses to what we have now at 6-7 WM, so those who have less WM will have less wpf in future, more WM - more wpf
2) Give much less wpp per level (like 2-3 points -> 55-75 wpf at level 30 without any WM at all), scale WM bonuses
3) Make AGI giving wpp (lets say medium agi is 18 or 21, it's from 11.5 to 13.5 wpp per agi, lets take 12 wpp per 1 agi). So the guy with 18 agility and no WM will have 216 wpp (105 wpf) (18 agility x 12wpp), the guy with 30 agility will have 360 wpp (129 wpf), the guy with 3 agi will have 36 wpf (58 wpf with 1 WM). Sounds fair to me.

There will be no need to nerf strength bonuses, or to nerf IF, people will have to sacrifice at least something from it to get agi or WM

Only if there's some sort of respec or ability to change some points around.

It's just as easy to make the argument that a build without IF suddenly loses many HP points, and people demand respecs because the way they built their character is all of a sudden drastically changed.

[Phew]

In general, I think the relative value of all the skills needs to be reassessed. So many people just max Power Strike and Athletics, neglecting all other skills. So you end up with lvl 34+ builds like 30/18, which is totally ridiculous.

-Ironflesh is totally useless for an archer or light armor player, but a huge boon to the Strength-heavy builds in plate. There has to be a way to equalize its effectiveness for everyone (maybe switch it from HP bonus to post-armor-soak mitigation bonus?)

-Weapon master does woefully little compared with spending those points on more str or agi. Maxing weapon master should make someone a "master of their weapon", not allow them to swing a whole 2% faster and do 4% more damage. It should allow cool duelist features that go beyond damage and speed.

-Shield skill doesn't affect much (only durability, and slight improvements to speed and ranged coverage). Why can't it affect crushthrough resistance, block stun resistance, shield weight encumbrance, bolt penetration, shield bash cooldown (oh, add shield bash please), etc etc

-Athletics should reduce fall damage (this matters to me, since I get at least one fall death on every siege round), and maybe reduce the wpf penalty from armor

-Riding doesn't do much beyond the requirement for riding a particular horse. How about riding above the requirement allows moving dismounts, higher jumps, faster mounting/dismounting, faster rear recovery, etc?

Basically, buff the skills so their bonuses are on par with the huge passive bonuses from Strength.

[DaveUKR]

Only if there's some sort of respec or ability to change some points around.

It's just as easy to make the argument that a build without IF suddenly loses many HP points, and people demand respecs because the way they built their character is all of a sudden drastically changed.

I think it should be done with a huge patch, which will change all the classes/items, so everyone gets free respec.

[Tyr_]

Just remove IF/additional HP from str, get a talent that reduces the penalty from armor and increase the value of armor. The idea of if is stupid.

[San]

In general, I think the relative value of all the skills needs to be reassessed. So many people just max Power Strike and Athletics, neglecting all other skills. So you end up with lvl 34+ builds like 30/18, which is totally ridiculous.

-Ironflesh is totally useless for an archer or light armor player, but a huge boon to the Strength-heavy builds in plate. There has to be a way to equalize its effectiveness for everyone (maybe switch it from HP bonus to post-armor-soak mitigation bonus?)

-Weapon master does woefully little compared with spending those points on more str or agi. Maxing weapon master should make someone a "master of their weapon", not allow them to swing a whole 2% faster and do 4% more damage. It should allow cool duelist features that go beyond damage and speed.

-Shield skill doesn't affect much (only durability, and slight improvements to speed and ranged coverage). Why can't it affect crushthrough resistance, block stun resistance, shield weight encumbrance, bolt penetration, shield bash cooldown (oh, add shield bash please), etc etc

-Athletics should reduce fall damage (this matters to me, since I get at least one fall death on every siege round), and maybe reduce the wpf penalty from armor

-Riding doesn't do much beyond the requirement for riding a particular horse. How about riding above the requirement allows moving dismounts, higher jumps, faster mounting/dismounting, faster rear recovery, etc?

Basically, buff the skills so their bonuses are on par with the huge passive bonuses from Strength.

My previous suggestions
Rebalancing IF
Rebalancing Armor+Weight heirlooms
Buffing WM
Making shield skill more useful than a gear requirement
Rebalancing wpf discrepancies

Been making my own suggestions since 2011 in order to try to make skill points more valuable compared to Athletics and PS. There's tons of room to improve a lot of skills in the game.

[Kafein]

Vex. You got 1 or 2 IF and 82 health. Do you really not see the problem with this?

Wouldn't be a problem if all melee weapons received a flat +4 damage buff.

[Tomas]

plenty of wpf rework formulas in here as well http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/potential-wpf-wm-changes/

[Phew]

My previous suggestions
Rebalancing IF
Rebalancing Armor+Weight heirlooms
Buffing WM
Making shield skill more useful than a gear requirement
Rebalancing wpf discrepancies

Been making my own suggestions since 2011 in order to try to make skill points more valuable compared to Athletics and PS. There's tons of room to improve a lot of skills in the game.

The Devs need to just make San and Tydeus the official "character stat/skill balancers".

[Kafein]

The Devs need to just make San and Tydeus the official "character stat/skill balancers".

It's not that easy, skills are one of the least moddable aspects of Warband.

[Phew]

It's not that easy, skills are one of the least moddable aspects of Warband.

I'm no programmer, but obviously item stats are easy for devs to change because they do it all the time. Most of these skill suggestions are effectively just modifiers to item stats that are a function of skill values; shield skill reducing effective shield weight, for instance.

[dontgothere]

I think it would be better to buff agi/ath and IF than to nerf strength, just because it would cause less frustration to players who would otherwise have to respec.
2c

[Spa_geh_tea]

Let us not buff anything the server can't handle....animation speeds, ghosting hitboxes, retardly negative speed bonuses.

Who here has hit a guy in cloth....cloth....cloth. With 7+ps and a 35+ cut weapon and had to hit them 3+ times.....
I see it often and its rediculous.

Should a 12/24 have the ability to do as much damage as 24/12?

Hell no. Never. Even with speed bonus, never.

Should they be faster?

Of course! Always!

Where is the engine failing?

High str builds are too fast.

Why are they to fast?

Hit detection and damage begins with the animation. However it should start 1/4 into swing and max at 3/4. The last 1/4 is deccelearation to start the next swing. I do not think the engine can control this?

[Phew]

Hit detection and damage begins with the animation. However it should start 1/4 into swing and max at 3/4. The last 1/4 is deccelearation to start the next swing. I do not think the engine can control this?

Word. This game would be so much better if the sweetspots got smaller and the animations faster. Now, if you outflank a 2-hander and get behind their shoulder they just think "oh, I've him right where I want him" and they hit you for full damage.