why nerf gen bonus?

[Tydeus]

And I am sorry to say that the level of hurt is not appreciable for me, at least. If you forced me to stay at level 20 cap while others enjoy 30 I am sorry to say that I would still play the game.

To each their own.

To Clarify: I am listening, but I have the arrogance to discount most of the things I hear, due to innumerable reasons as I find the judgement to be rather suspect for most accounts. I have seen this reaction in many games whenever a patch of this magnitude hits, and usually it takes the two week mark for things to actually be credible, and the 4-5 week mark to show trends that highlight the majority of the flaws.

You're an intelligent person and one of the few who can form a coherent argument on these forums, but I must say, credibility comes from logical assessments/arguments. "Two weeks" and "4-5 week marks" only tell you what the masses have caught on to. They of course, get these from the trend setters, the people who have thought logically about the mechanics and thus have acted upon their findings. To which it only takes the great players(as opposed to the best, the trend setters) two weeks to catch onto, and everyone else, namely the casuals, 4-5 weeks.

If a statement is logical and reasonable, it gains credibility, regardless of how much time has passed since conception. You shouldn't ignore an idea because it's fresh and hasn't stood the "test of time", you should ignore an idea for being illogical.

It may sound like I'm being harsh after spook's words, but I'm just picking on you because of what I've seen throughout these forums as a whole.

[Tears of Destiny]

I do agree wholeheartedly with the above, and I feel that i should clarify a bit, as my previous posts were rather hasty.

Here it is: I am not discounting everything, but I am discounting those ideas when they do not make sense, not because this magic 2 week number has yet to be reached, but simply those ideas that seem rather flawed to me.

 For example, when a veteran player gives a comment on how the cav were broken (before chadz fixed it) I listened and supported the idea due to the idea being well constructed and presented. When a veteran player gives the idea that "the At fifteen, I had the will to  learn ; at thirty, I could stand ; at forty, I had no  doubts ; at fifty, I understood the heavenly Bidding ;  at sixty, my ears were opened ; at seventy, I could  do as my heart lusted without trespassing from the  square." I feel obligated to point out the immense flaws (first off dying should be used, not dead, and no that is not so much a grammatical concept so much as common sense as these are not arcane terms but rather common ones, a clean and simple case of over reacting). Veteran status gives some credit to an argument, but it is by no means a large factor.

A way to sway my opinion is not to boast about the amount of hours dedicated to this mod, but to present me a clear and well constructed, coherent argument. If all I am told is "I am a veteran player so you should listen to me, and I shall be right in a few months and you shall see, and no I shall not give explicit examples as to why I am right but give rather vague statements" then forgive my arrogance for discounting the vast majority of what you have to say.

From what I have seen, level 35 is not a demi-god, but it is rather dangerous in the hand of a skilled player. Extremely difficult to take down, unless you are also a skilled player or a demi-god yourself, or using group tactics.

[Spook Island]

Many guys I play with all come from the same forum and we've been actively recruiting people to C-rpg, but this is honestly going to make it a lot tougher now seeing as how we've got MAJOR advantages over them.

It's kind of hard for me to lie about them being completely screwed over by this; especially when they ask me why my generation is so high.

If I was in their position, it would be a major turnoff to giving this mod a chance.

[Tears of Destiny]

Many guys I play with all come from the same forum and we've been actively recruiting people to C-rpg, but this is honestly going to make it a lot tougher now seeing as how we've got MAJOR advantages over them.

It's kind of hard for me to lie about them being completely screwed over by this; especially when they ask me why my generation is so high.

If I was in their position, it would be a major turnoff to giving this mod a chance.

And here I disagree.

To be completely specific:

A level 30 can compete with a gen 25 level 30 player if player skills are equal, as the heirlooms will only give the player so much edge (especially with certain items like the triple loomed bar mace no longer having crush through for example, or certain light saber swords vanishing from people).

I do agree that they are at a disadvantage, and it will take a ridiculous time to overcome that advantage, but this honestly is a small disadvantage, otherwise I would to this day struggle to get kills when fighting those innumerable gen 20+ players.

I woudl point out to new players that if they were to start EVE Online, they would have a very big uphill battle compared to the top corporations, one that will literally take years of real life time to overcome. If they play WoW, have them look at the twink level 80s, etc.

Every mmo has a disadvantage for new players against veterans, and luckily for us, c-rpg only demonstrates a small disadvantage.

What would these major advantages be, precisely?

[Tydeus]

Said it somewhere else, but I fully support xp cap on bonus xp for gens.  But I think they should have kept it at 10% per gen, they didn't need to change both as either solution worked toward the same goal, reducing exponential xp for higher gens.  However, an xp cap benefits newer players relative to older players by still providing significant benefit for the first 9 or 10 gens with xp in addition to the heirloom as the current xp system is a serious grind once you hit level 30.  As it is their is an xp bonus for more gens before hitting the cap but such a small gain that higher gen people are still vastly ahead.  I know a lot of people still in their first 3 gens and it is a nightmare enough if you want to even think about getting one weapon masterworked (which now has been considerably nerfed in benefits).  This would still produce the same result as higher gen character would still have exact same max xp gain, but lower gen people wouldn't be punished for starting with cRPG later than others.

That's kinda what I've been talking about with the two statements I emboldened. I started playing cRPG the same time as 7 other people from my vent, I'm gen 25, one is 5, another is 3, all the rest are still gen 1. This gap is ridiculous.
To the first statement, it sounds great doesn't it? Gives them a bonus so they can get the first few heirlooms that everyone wants. But then we look at what actually happens, how much people actually play, the second statement. As per this(http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,4383.0/viewresults.html) thread, you can see that of the votes, most people aren't even gen 5, and vastly the 2nd largest group is of people who are between gen 5-10. You also have to realize that new players and casuals are probably less likely to come to the forums than those that have been around for multiple months or have played quite a few hours in game (100+). What this amounts to, is that you have a system that benefits those below gen 16(you say 9 or 10), but the vast majority of people aren't even anywhere close to that.

[Spook Island]

getting a little tired of having to repeat the same things over and over to you

from a previous quote of mine in this same topic

"New players already have to deal with a steep learning curve, now they have to deal with a steep item/generation curve too."

[Malaclypse]

Kesh put forward an idea I can get behind in another thread (here: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,4481.0.html

That being:

I actually like the idea of an xp cap for high gen people, it makes sense.  Would have liked it a more even number just for aesthetic reasons like 1500 or 2000, but I don't think the low gens should be punished, hard enough as is for gens 2 and 3, should just keep it at 10% if you are going to cap it anyway.

Revert the xp gain per gen to 10%, with a cap after X amount of gens (you'd still get the heirloom bonus for retiring after X amount, but the xp bonus would cap at a decent amount so that you could still get 10k+ at 5x). This seems like a fair enough solution that's not too hard on new players, while still not totally screwing over people who have been around longer.

Edit: Woops. Didn't see that Tyd posted this like, two spots up while I was compiling. My bad.

[Tears of Destiny]

getting a little tired of having to repeat the same things over and over to you

from a previous quote of mine in this same topic

"New players already have to deal with a steep learning curve, now they have to deal with a steep item/generation curve too."

And again, my point is that the "steep item/generation curve too" is not a game changing idea when fighting people in battle. I am not disagreeing that it is a disadvantage, I have stated that innumerable times. I Agree That it Is A Disadvantage. I too grow weary of repeating myself, hence me highlighting the previous sentence in hopes that you finally get that I agree with that statement, but again, I am disagreeing that it is a Major Disadvantage as the heirloom bonus does not profoundly effect the in game effects of winning a match, only slightly and thus is only a small disadvantage (but yes one that will take nearly forever to overcome).

I am tired of repeating myself too...

[Tydeus]

What this amounts to, is that you have a system that benefits those below gen 16(you say 9 or 10), but the vast majority of people aren't even anywhere close to that.

It might be worth clarifying what I mean here. since most people are below gen 5, they're going to be leveling a lot slower now, than they were before. So how can anyone expect them, with this new system(especially after a database wipe) that is much slower(and I'm talking about the first few gens) than the previous one, to get their first masterwork or two, even after the patch has been out for 4 months.

I am disagreeing that it is a Major Disadvantage as the heirloom bonus does not profoundly effect the in game effects of winning a match, only slightly and thus is only a small disadvantage.

I'd have actually argued that this was the case even before patch .220. I'd also point out that the majority of the people complaining about heirlooms are in actuality the "whiners" everyone is fed up with.

God I gotta stop editing my posts.

[Tears of Destiny]

It might be worth clarifying what I mean here. since most people are below gen 5, they're going to be leveling a lot slower now, than they were before. So how can anyone expect them, with this new system(especially after a database wipe) that is much slower(and I'm talking about the first few gens) than the previous one, to get their first masterwork or two, even after the patch has been out for 4 months.

 Oh certainly, and that is a little unfair surely. I fully understand that clarification, thank you for providing it. 

I'd have actually argued that this was the case even before patch .220.

I am happy that you see it that way.

[Spook Island]

And again, my point is that the "steep item/generation curve too" is not a game changing idea when fighting people in battle. I am not disagreeing that it is a disadvantage, I have stated that innumerable times. I Agree That it Is A Disadvantage. I too grow weary of repeating myself, hence me highlighting the previous sentence in hopes that you finally get that I agree with that statement, but again, I am disagreeing that it is a Major Disadvantage as the heirloom bonus does not profoundly effect the in game effects of winning a match, only slightly and thus is only a small disadvantage (but yes one that will take nearly forever to overcome).

I am tired of repeating myself too...

you are admittedly generation 3

all things considered, you have no idea what impact heirloom bonuses have

i mean you dont even have one masterwork item

As a generation 11, I will gladly tell you there is a huge difference in performance; so have other players (maybe you should start listening to us)
It's like you're giving trying to give advice on swimming when you've never stepped into the deep end of the pool.

[Tears of Destiny]

you are admittedly generation 3

all things considered, you have no idea what impact heirloom bonuses have

i mean you dont even have one masterwork item

As a generation 11, I will gladly tell you there is a huge difference in performance; so have other players (maybe you should start listening to us)
It's like you're giving trying to give advice on swimming when you've never stepped into the deep end of the pool.

I have routinely used (as in hours a day) masterwork items as some clans actually utilize duplicates to regularly give other members to maintain an "edge" in battle. I know the edge very well of the following that I have used more times then I can count: Masterwork Sniper Crossbow, Champion Arabian Horse, Masterwork Barmace, Masterwork Awlpike, Masterwork Huscarl, Masterwork sidesword, Masterwork Strongbow, Masterwork Warbow, Masterwork heavy Lance...

I rarely play without one of my clans alongside me with a squad...

Edit: and honestly there is not too much of a damn difference between a Fine Warbow and a Masterwork version, and considering I have done just well with my normal warbow I think I am content that newcomers can and will be able to remain viable in battle, and hit Gen 4 with proper work to gain a "masterwork" item.

[Spook Island]

I have routinely used (as in hours a day) masterwork items as some clans actually utilize duplicates to regularly give other members to maintain an "edge" in battle. I know the edge very well of the following that I have used more times then I can count: Masterwork Sniper Crossbow, Champion Arabian Horse, Masterwork Barmace, Masterwork Awlpike, Masterwork Huscarl, Masterwork sidesword, Masterwork Strongbow, Masterwork Warbow, Masterwork heavy Lance...

I rarely play without one of my clans alongside me with a squad...

how many of those weapons have you been level 30 and fully proficient with?

and you've carried one masterwork (not even your own) item on you aside a horse

like i said

you're trying to give advice on swimming when you haven't stepped anywhere near the deep end of the pool

[Tears of Destiny]

how many of those weapons have you been level 30 and fully proficient with?

and you've carried one masterwork (not even your own) item on you aside a horse

like i said

you're trying to give advice on swimming when you haven't stepped anywhere near the deep end of the pool

All of them at least 139 wpf in at one point or another, god knows I have enough alts I keep permanently at level 30...

I have stepped in the deep pool, I just do not laze about every second of my life there and only venture there two hours a day, then swim the other 3 or 4 in the rest of the place...

[Keshian]

It might be worth clarifying what I mean here. since most people are below gen 5, they're going to be leveling a lot slower now, than they were before. So how can anyone expect them, with this new system(especially after a database wipe) that is much slower(and I'm talking about the first few gens) than the previous one, to get their first masterwork or two, even after the patch has been out for 4 months.
I'd have actually argued that this was the case even before patch .220. I'd also point out that the majority of the people complaining about heirlooms are in actuality the "whiners" everyone is fed up with.

God I gotta stop editing my posts.

There are probably better solutions, like changing base xp to 2000 then making each new gen give you 5% or 10% less xp down to base 1000, probably would be even better for attracting and keeping the interest of new players.  Programming-wise I was trying to offer the least needed work to fix, just go back to old system and keep the xp cap.  Another solution is just keep a universal xp base of 2000 with no generation xp bonus (I like this idea at this point as it doesn't nerf anyone but people over gen 11 and even those people are still better off then what the current patch does).  This would decrease the number of times people retire, but make retirement an action by an individual to customize their unique character with a few unique masterworked items like their red tassel spear, rocks, or practice sword.  Mostly I think the xp system with the original January patch made cRPG feel more grindish with time being such a factor rather than techniques of staying alive longer while staying close to the fight and that feelign should be reduced, especially for newer players.