So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?

[Cris]

So, you feel underpowered. Has this anything to do with how fun it is for other classes to fight your class ? No.

Ho I'm sorry, I thought the debate was more like the whole community against HAs

Again, others ? Who exactly ? HA ? That's hardly a correct use of "others". I mean yeah I am not an HA myself but not everybody else is an HA. Btw "their nerfs" = decisions coming from the balance team.

Surely I wouldn't use a shield and throwing weapons if that was the case.



Playing as a melee character doesn't generate a tenth of the rage HAs do. Deal with it. This is not an intolerant view, it's a fact. What you just said proves you are yourself extremely egoistic, or trolling.

This is not a balance issue, I would be fine with balanced HA if fighting them was enjoyable. It is not and never will be no matter how much they are nerfed, so I think the only way to solve this problem is to keep the HA population at a minimum.

Kafein, you couldn't be more wrong, it is completely a balance issue. All player should have the same chances of getting high scores in all types of gameplay. The fun to fight HA is also a none measurable point, I enjoy fighting HA on archer alts, on cav. On melee alts, I dont mind them either, I keep away from open as much as I can, but a horse lancer is much more deadly than a HA.

The debate is also about the skill "horse archery".

That a decision comes from the balance team doesn't mean it a right decision. Right now HA is very nerfed, and even more underpowered in game modes like siege and strat.

HA is a part of the game, as decided by the devs, so it should be balanced properly. If you particularly hate HAs, go melee servers. So many people complain about ranged and mounted range here that it surprises me that the melee server isn't always full.

HA generate rage only on players that lack "real" battle awareness and team play skill when in unfavorable terrain.

And besides, what is the difference rage wise of a HA shooting while standing still and one shooting but a bit more accurately? if you are melee, nothing at all, both time he is out of range... If you are ranged on foot, I rather the HA be moving, time it well and your shots will kill them in one go.

And for the record, back in the old days when I could take on most of a team on my own as a AHA, there were less HA than now... We will never go back to those days (impossible to get the level needed now) and neither am I asking in this thread for anything close to back then (50 speed courser and a reticule that would not open at top speed)

Elimination of the WPP penalty will not increase the number of long term horse archers (people who play it more than a couple of days as stf) HA is a very different class to anyone other, if you love it, you will always play it, if you dont, you will get bored. If you see it as an easy way to get close and shoot, proper HA will kill you instantly.

Look at the pics in the OP, look at the video, do the math, or find similar values in single player if you manage to modify it to cRPG, the change we are asking for is very small, it will make HA fairer, it will not mean nightmare on melee without shield. Because that is the only kind of people with no real defense against HA other than good armor and a brain :-P

[Grumbs]

So, you feel underpowered. Has this anything to do with how fun it is for other classes to fight your class ? No.

Ho I'm sorry, I thought the debate was more like the whole community against HAs

Again, others ? Who exactly ? HA ? That's hardly a correct use of "others". I mean yeah I am not an HA myself but not everybody else is an HA. Btw "their nerfs" = decisions coming from the balance team.

Surely I wouldn't use a shield and throwing weapons if that was the case.



Playing as a melee character doesn't generate a tenth of the rage HAs do. Deal with it. This is not an intolerant view, it's a fact. What you just said proves you are yourself extremely egoistic, or trolling.

This is not a balance issue, I would be fine with balanced HA if fighting them was enjoyable. It is not and never will be no matter how much they are nerfed, so I think the only way to solve this problem is to keep the HA population at a minimum.

"Fun" is a very important consideration regardless of "balance". Some people are incredibly selfish though, and most these guys don't even care that they waste people's time towards the end of the round. Its all about griefing or going for cheap kills. If people want to play an FPS, play an FPS. Don't spoil an otherwise amazing melee/cav combat game by bringing a gun to a knifefight (and a vehicle). At its core this is a melee game..it should be balanced around that as thats what draws people to it

Buffing HA will not make battle more fun for anyone except the people who play HA. It slows down the whole gameplay and creates stalemates. Same goes for all ranged

[Leshma]

Much ado about nothing.

[Rumblood]

Do realize that you are the guys who bring guns to a knife fight and ruin everyone elses fun.

A friend of mine was jumped by an ex-husband of the waitress he was seeing. Guy slashed him across the gut, he pulled out his gun and shot the guy. Knife wound died, gunshot lived. 

Sadly, I did not make that up. 

[Taser]

I really enjoy playing ranged cav, but it sucks, especielly unloomed. Meleefascist like kafein and taser only thinks about their own fun. If their nerfs and intolerant views destroys the fun of others, they don't give a shit, aslong as they get to slash people without ever having to worry about ranged.

Wut? Do you even read? I've been arguing for the boost in the OP this whole thread. I've been ranged as much as I've been melee and I don't have a single problem with ranged.

[Leshma]

We'll need a lot of ranged/melee hybrids and them being really strong to fight against horse archers being decent again. Kafein is right, problem with HA is that there's no proper counter and that's why it must stay UP and underused.

[Cris]

We'll need a lot of ranged/melee hybrids and them being really strong to fight against horse archers being decent again. Kafein is right, problem with HA is that there's no proper counter and that's why it must stay UP and underused.

Actually all ranged are counter, specially crossbows and archers. Open field - good archer vs good HA at mid range+, archer will always win.

This small buff is by no means a proper buff that will make a difference to HA numbers or tangible effectiveness

[Overdriven]

As far as I'm concerned anyone who hasn't played HA since the nerfs, let alone ever, should have no part in this discussion. We are ruining your fun? Well you are ruining ours by constantly moaning and demanding nerfs so HA is UP. There are hardly any HA and I bet you get shot by an HAs arrow as melee maybe once in a several hour play through. I certainly never notice them as melee. Therefore it really shouldn't be an issue for the smallest buff. Complaining so much just demonstrates how sore you are over it.

As for those saying zomg but this is a melee focused game. It isn't. Its a medieval era war game. That encompasses every aspect of that era. If it was meant to be melee focused it would be. Just because there's directional combat does not in any way make it the focus of thhe game. Plenty of people would play it even if there wasn't a full directional system. I don't know any other game that includes HA like this so to me, that is the unique selling point to me as a person. Yours is melee, mine is HA. Both are as valid.

So is a tiny buff really that bad? Its not extra damage, its only slightly more accuracy. I get the feeling a lot of guys are coming in here and complaining without even looking at the OP. As a result this has gone way beyond the OPs idea. Its simply become a hate against HA thread because we are scared of them getting to much damage and killing everyone and everything. Such an idea is idiotic. Its a small balance change that would be nice and is needed for HA but that I doubt anyone not playing HA would ever notice.

[Grumbs]

Of course its a melee game. No one would give two shits about this if it was released with half assed melee, like with ranged. Look at any reviews for M&B, its all about the melee combat.

There are mods that flesh out the ranged side of the game, to make it ranged focussed. I don't go there and try to push a melee agenda, and people shouldn't push ranged agendas here either. The main draw of this particular mod is that ranged is toned down from native. I don't see why people would even want to play here for fps style combat when you have native and the other ranged mods. If theres a better melee mod then maybe I should look into that, but for now all I have is cRPG

[Overdriven]

Crpg is more balanced ranged wise than native. And ranged isn't the only thing toned down. Lots of melee is as well. People are forever complaining that melee on crpg is to slowl. The draw of crpg as a mod is the rpg part. You can make your own build and char. As for warband I've never cared for the melee. The draw for me was the HA which I always played in SP and MP native. I'm simply saying there is so much more to this than just melee. Sure melee makes up a lot of the players but it always would do and should do. Ranged over is just as integral a part of the game. Plenty of people would still play it without full directional combat. I didn't know of any other game that was in this setting as a FP game. Only mods for other games.

That's why I'm not saying make everything ranged. As far as I'm concerned crpg is the best all round balanced and populated mod. It has something for everyone. But that doesn't mean the balancing is right 100% and that's why such a small change would be well plaaced.

[Grumbs]

Best populated? It's my opinion that ranged has near killed the popularity of this mod. Who can blame them though? You can get xp/gold while just standing around shooting in a passive style. When we had roof camping every ranged wanted to camp up there. The game shouldn't enable such passive gamestyles in the first place. The more that can be done to combat this (including mobile ranged platforms like HA) the better

You would have no people to shoot at without direction combat btw. As someone else said, its parasitic gameplay and drives the main playerbase to other games.

In order to have suitable counters to buffed HA we would need to drive the mod even further towards ranged style gameplay. The game is going towards hybridisation anyway though I guess. Sooner or later there will be no point in playing pure melee, might as well grab some ranged as well like throwing or crossbows and play like a standard fps rather than PVP combat game

[Yamun]

Of course its a melee game. No one would give two shits about this if it was released with half assed melee, like with ranged. Look at any reviews for M&B, its all about the melee combat.

There are mods that flesh out the ranged side of the game, to make it ranged focussed. I don't go there and try to push a melee agenda, and people shouldn't push ranged agendas here either. The main draw of this particular mod is that ranged is toned down from native. I don't see why people would even want to play here for fps style combat when you have native and the other ranged mods. If theres a better melee mod then maybe I should look into that, but for now all I have is cRPG

Best populated? It's my opinion that ranged has near killed the popularity of this mod. Who can blame them though? You can get xp/gold while just standing around shooting in a passive style. When we had roof camping every ranged wanted to camp up there. The game shouldn't enable such passive gamestyles in the first place. The more that can be done to combat this (including mobile ranged platforms like HA) the better

You would have no people to shoot at without direction combat btw. As someone else said, its parasitic gameplay and drives the main playerbase to other games.

In order to have suitable counters to buffed HA we would need to drive the mod even further towards ranged style gameplay. The game is going towards hybridisation anyway though I guess. Sooner or later there will be no point in playing pure melee, might as well grab some ranged as well like throwing or crossbows and play like a standard fps rather than PVP combat game

Okay, I can't sit here quiet any longer just reading this. Do me a favor and ask a person from cRPG who created the mod to comment on this forum that cRPG is all melee based combat. To suggest that is only saying that your style of game play is correct and all others are incorrect. If cRPG was meant to be melee based only, guess what... there would be no ranged period. There would also be options for the mods of the servers to turn off ranged weapons. They toned down the ranged side of the game due to it being unrealistic compared to the pin point accuracy people could have in native.

I personally play a horse archer, but that isn't the only class I will play. In my own personal opinion, I see a lot of melee based weapons that are OP in themselves. All those blunt based knock down weapons that overhand strikes are pretty OP as well.

As far as HA go, I remember plenty of times I was shot off from my horse by the other team's archers without being able to land arrows back against them due to the nerf. Honestly, to suggest that a class doesn't have a counter is the most uneducated thing I have heard. Roll up a HA, ride around as one, then you can have a more understanding in how it works.

[Grumbs]

Knockdown is OP against what, other melee? Thats like saying HA is OP compared to HC. Melee vs melee is fundamentally a whole other beast when it comes to balance, and I would argue anyway that knockdown is if anything something that benefits ranged the most since nearly every ranged I see packs a blunt knockdown weapon of some kind. As a melee guy I would be very happy to remove knockdown entirely or make it purely situational rather than % based

They toned down ranged for realism? Realism is no where near a main consideration for balance in this mod. Ask chadz himself:

"Also, we don't do changes because we want the game to be more realistic. We do changes because we feel they are right. If they fit with realism, that's great, and it's also our guideline, but almost never the reason for a change. We are not trying do create a simulator, we are trying to create a game." Or look at comments from cmp about the realism area of the forum

Ranged is toned down from native because native is pure ridiculousness. I wouldn't touch that for more than a few mins in battle. Everyone has ranged it seems. Part of the reason people want to play ranged here is because they don't want to get shot in native, they want to shoot slow moving melee

The counter to HA should be more ranged? Always the counter to ranged is more ranged. Its whats killing the game. The counter to ranged should be that arrows don't penetrate melee armour so well, so ranged kills each other or other horses

Anyway just some rambling thoughts, I'm getting passed caring about this game

[Yamun]

Knockdown is OP against what, other melee? Thats like saying HA is OP compared to HC. Melee vs melee is fundamentally a whole other beast when it comes to balance, and I would argue anyway that knockdown is if anything something that benefits ranged the most since nearly every ranged I see packs a blunt knockdown weapon of some kind. As a melee guy I would be very happy to remove knockdown entirely or make it purely situational rather than % based

They toned down ranged for realism? Realism is no where near a main consideration for balance in this mod. Ask chadz himself:

"Also, we don't do changes because we want the game to be more realistic. We do changes because we feel they are right. If they fit with realism, that's great, and it's also our guideline, but almost never the reason for a change. We are not trying do create a simulator, we are trying to create a game." Or look at comments from cmp about the realism area of the forum

Ranged is toned down from native because native is pure ridiculousness. I wouldn't touch that for more than a few mins in battle. Everyone has ranged it seems. Part of the reason people want to play ranged here is because they don't want to get shot in native, they want to shoot slow moving melee

The counter to HA should be more ranged? Always the counter to ranged is more ranged. Its whats killing the game. The counter to ranged should be that arrows don't penetrate melee armour so well, so ranged kills each other or other horses

Anyway just some rambling thoughts, I'm getting passed caring about this game

I am starting to wonder if you can read and comprehend what others are saying. I did mentioned I don't just play as a HA... which means prehaps I also might play an infantry of some sort.... imagine that... Honestly, read before you comment.

[Grumbs]

How is that relevant? I didn't say you don't play other classes at all..Why should I care if you don't always play HA or HC?