The root of all misery in cRPG

[Casimir]

If the weight is such an issue why not drop your bow to fight rather than hoisting it over your back?

Forgive my ignorance as i havent played ranged since the last patch but if you drop you bow n arrows on the ground, you will surely do better in melee? You loose your ability to kite but improve you ability to fight.

I would also question your premice that you need high wpf to effectivly melee. Its easily possible to do well with low wpf chars when u have light armor and high ath.

I think a change in player mentality was hoped for by the devs, one that has not yet occured.  I for one think they should further reduce long weapon speed and make mid tier weapons the more effective when speed/length/damage is calculated.  This i believe would go someway to narrowing the gap between pure melee and hybrid functionality.

[Jarlek]

If the weight is such an issue why not drop your bow to fight rather than hoisting it over your back?

Forgive my ignorance as i havent played ranged since the last patch but if you drop you bow n arrows on the ground, you will surely do better in melee? You loose your ability to kite but improve you ability to fight.

I would also question your premice that you need high wpf to effectivly melee. Its easily possible to do well with low wpf chars when u have light armor and high ath.

I think a change in player mentality was hoped for by the devs, one that has not yet occured.  I for one think they should further reduce long weapon speed and make mid tier weapons the more effective when speed/length/damage is calculated.  This i believe would go someway to narrowing the gap between pure melee and hybrid functionality.

After the changes, I sometimes dropped my arbalest when I entered melee.

Sometimes that meant I couldn't retrieve it because the enemy had taken that position, but most times I could get it back. This added a sense of strategy. Did I drop the arbalest to gain movement speed for the melee fight, or did I keep it on me in case I wouldn't be able to retrieve it? If I sudddenly got surprised by enemies that came around a corner and had to run from, did I keep the arbalest and risk getting caught or drop it to safely get away? When someone managed to sneak up on me, it also meant I had a disadvantage in the melee fight, I didn't get to prepare myself.

Before you just had to choose from run/stand and fight when enemies came close, now you have to make choice. Drop and run, sheath and run or stand and fight? With or without the weapon on your back?

Making the choice of whether or not to drop your ranged weapon adds to the game. Figuring out if you should drop your ranged weapon or not, and when to do it, is a skill in my opinion. Sometimes you choose the wrong option, other times you don't. Consistently doing the right tactical choice is the mark of a good player.

Also, I agree with Casimir. 100 wpf is all I need for any melee weapon, 50 is still doable. I had 100 melee wpf in my crossbow gen, my HC gen and both y archer gens. You don't lose much from it.

[Gurnisson]

Don't need melee wpf. Done archer and xbowman with 5 ps, regular mace and 1 wpf plenty of times

[Casimir]

Well we cant all be jaw dropping, blood boiling, cock hardening proffesionals like you gurni.


I do believe that what Jarlek has stated is the intention of the devs. To make kiting as effective as melee for ranged in general. Its uses are now situational rather than a simple 1 stop shop for archer dominance.

[DaveUKR]

Afaik DaveUKR has 5 PS and no more than 90 wpf in 2h and he is "quite" effective at melee. Also, I don't get why "you cant afford any melee WPF."

I have 64wpf atm (lvl34). Had 25 at lvl30. I do agree that it's difficult to handle with dedicated melee players while you only have such amount of wpf but it's still viable. It depends on how skilled you are in melee. I rarely feel significant disadvantage fighting my enemies and I try to compensate lack of wpf with good footwork and timing.

[TheAppleSauceMan]

As someone who's been a dedicated melee character for the last two years, I'd like to share my input on how the game is changing for the worse.

There was a time when your ability to top the scoreboard, to do well in battle, to win the match, all revolved around how good you were.  cRPG lacks this factor now in the sense that you can just grind to level 32 or 33, sell your loom points and instantly have enough gold to wear whatever the hell you want, upkeep is unnecessary.  You don't need to be good at blocking these days, just roll high strength in heavy loomed armor with a big two-handed weapon (greatsword or nodachi are preferable) and you'll be a god.  I'm still stuck in the mentality that I am capable of doing well with a rounded build like 18-18 with unloomed equipment.

I've since come to realize that the majority of the community is following whatever is the best and strongest build.  It's natural for anyone to follow that route, since it's the easiest path and requires the least amount of effort and thinking.  The current top builds are crossbows, which require almost no proficiency to be used effectively, hit hard and can be used in heavy armor without restricting their ability to fight in melee, and they don't have to worry about how much money they lose for upkeep because as I said, upkeep has been rendered unnecessary by the marketplace and heirloom points.  To counter this, people don't resort to shields, yet they resort to stacking their strength, using heavy armor and large weapons that can one hit anyone who has an armor rating below 25 and ironflesh less than seven.  Their heavy armor and large weapons enable them to soak up lots of hits and deal just as many, and they don't have to worry about the upkeep because they're stinking rich.

To conclude, it's not exploitation as much as it is human nature to take the easiest, least exerting choices over the challenging ones.  The upkeep system is useless, crossbows are too easy to use, strength is being abused by the commons, money is no longer a variable as much as it is a counter like the health bar, or xp bar.  Now, if you'll excuse me I'm going to go grind myself to level 32 and sell my loom points so I can avoid worrying about upkeep like everyone else.


Nerf rage buff fun 2012


EDIT:

Incoming swarm of *insert whoever I targeted in my post* -1'ing me.

This is far too true. I made an alt named "SPARTAN_BEEF_MISSILE" a few months back. 36/3, nodachi. From around level 21 all the way up to my retirement at level 31, I generally topped the scoreboard round after round, if not, in the top 3. I can't even begin to describe how easy it is. Not to mention my 2 gens of 36/3 glaive user on my main, now THAT is easy.

[cxalc]

try my build
30lv
27str/9agi
5if
9ps
9pd
3ath
3wm
52wpf 1H/123wpf ARCHERY

30str/9agi is good as well

~Str archers will become fashion nowadays~

[Grumpy_Nic]

The problem that archers have are clearly stated and I understand them and I can feel with you. And +1. Only 1 point that I think is rather crap.

Why do you need all the wpf in archery? I mean, yeah to be accurate and stuff but on the other hand, are you supposed to be snipers? And with that amount of wpf, some training and good anticipation you are snipers. And snipers are fucked if a tank rolls over them.

It is quite possible to defend with a 1 slot weapon and 1 wpf. Maybe not to win but at least until some teammate helps you.

[Macropus]

The problem is not that archers can't kite anymore - that's totally fine, BUT the problem is that archers are slow now.
"What's the difference?" - you might ask.
Archers should be fast. Archers should be able to move back to their team if they meet an enemy mob, as any lightly armored character should.
Archers (arguably) should be able to dodge cav sometimes. Archers need speed for surviving, because they have no other means to survive.
Archers being slower than most of the infantry - makes no sence.

Make archers unable to kite, but ffs, don't make them kinda slow tanks that can't even move through the battlefield and have to just stand in one place and shoot. (im not speaking about going into melee, that system "drop your bow, find a weapon and fight" at least works now).

[Everkistus]

Archers can fight back if they have the means for it. For example nowadays I most often I fight if someone comes to gank me unless it's someone I recognize I cant beat in melee. However, I'm have my WPF set to 84/154 to 1h/archery and have got 5 PS now that I'm lvl 33.

The problem with some archers is that they completely sacrifice their ability to fight back when they want to get the best benefit out of archery. Most often you see archers running around with 172 WPF in archery with no melee prof and no PS. This kind of build and playstyle would be incredibly boring for me.

I personally think this nerf is a good thing since it usually has those Rus/Long Bow users taking 1 quiver of arrows and a melee weapon to go with them. What I'd still like to see is that crossbows would have a WPF requirement to use (1 for hunting, 50 for light, 80 for normal, 120 for heavy, 150 for arba). Also the idea for setting 1 slot purely for melee weapon is a good one.

Finally, a big thumbs up for all hybrid archers out there (Tenne, Macropus, etc). You guys have chosen not to be minmaxers with Rus Bows and instead took a playstyle and build in where you can actually fight back.

[Arrowblood]

The thing is, there will be no more new Archers in future, people whine hard about the archers who play the game for 2-3 years. A new player will try out how much fun it is to play a archer in crpg, but then he will notive that he will get hardly some kills with his bow and arrows and he cant defend himself properly and he cant run away. And i dont need to talk about the score. So his solution is: I press the respecc button and become a melee fighter because its easier to get kills and points. So you have alredy won the war haters.

[Vibe]

The thing is, there will be no more new Archers in future, people whine hard about the archers who play the game for 2-3 years. A new player will try out how much fun it is to play a archer in crpg, but then he will notive that he will get hardly some kills with his bow and arrows and he cant defend himself properly and he cant run away. And i dont need to talk about the score. So his solution is: I press the respecc button and become a melee fighter because its easier to get kills and points.

working as intended

[IR_Kuoin]

I feel sorry for Kunio, lvl 34 archer with no melee build 

[Shpritza]

The root of all misery in cRPG is players whining about how it sucks.

This!

[Grumpy_Nic]

Archers can fight back if they have the means for it. For example nowadays I most often I fight if someone comes to gank me unless it's someone I recognize I cant beat in melee. However, I'm have my WPF set to 84/154 to 1h/archery and have got 5 PS now that I'm lvl 33.

The problem with some archers is that they completely sacrifice their ability to fight back when they want to get the best benefit out of archery. Most often you see archers running around with 172 WPF in archery with no melee prof and no PS. This kind of build and playstyle would be incredibly boring for me.

I personally think this nerf is a good thing since it usually has those Rus/Long Bow users taking 1 quiver of arrows and a melee weapon to go with them. What I'd still like to see is that crossbows would have a WPF requirement to use (1 for hunting, 50 for light, 80 for normal, 120 for heavy, 150 for arba). Also the idea for setting 1 slot purely for melee weapon is a good one.

Finally, a big thumbs up for all hybrid archers out there (Tenne, Macropus, etc). You guys have chosen not to be minmaxers with Rus Bows and instead took a playstyle and build in where you can actually fight back.

+1
also as xbow user I agree to the wpf requirement for xbows. Although I wouldnt set 150 for arba, 120-130 would probably be enough I guess. Another option would be to significantly increase the reload times if you dont have the required wpf (like +5-10 seconds) because you're simply not trained in it. Still useable but not really worth it maybe.