free river village!

[Toodles]

We too strive for balanced maps, where arbitrarily placed camping spots are removed. We block off and remove those kind of spots, because they Do Not Favour teamwork, contrarily to what you might believe, they favour camping.

Yes and no - one thing I loved doing back when Hun in the Sun had an accessible donkey was convincing my team NOT to take it, while a third of theirs always wandered out there we'd just mop up the stragglers leaving ten to twenty guys camping a completely pointless tower - I remember not losing a SINGLE round back then.

I DO enjoy maps that allow a team to make utterly catastrophic tactical choices... But then you're quite right in that promoting camping isn't ideal. I just wish for maps that allow many, MANY more tactical opportunities than those currently on the roster : shall we go left or right?

[Smoothrich]

I actually agree that this map, if its the one tinged that shade of blue like a urinal cake, is a bad map.  One side spawns closer to the entrance to the tower if i recall, crossing the moat is really annoying, random dumb boats, tons of worthless unused space that is literally just blank empty ground, with 1 dumb tower in the middle for STR builds to camp.

It was bad.

However maps of that nature CAN be good.  Like Arena, or that map with the bridge, a smaller tower, and all the stakes in the water.  Those maps are fantastic because they are small, symmetrical, very focused and fast.  Apparently there is a policy against "NO SYMMETRICAL MAPS" but I think that is misguided.  Sure, strive for a lot of maps to be dynamic slices of a battlefield with unique hills and stuff.  Like Field by the River, archetype for "good map."

But don't remove these maps forever just cuz you think there could be better ones!  Not having arena is a shame, and sometimes a symmetrical "gamey" type map can be more fun then any random plain or village.  I think of them as "Halo" maps because they are designed to be fun and fair first then some sort of gimmick second.

Bring Back Arena.  Bring Back Stakes And Planks Map.   

[Arathian]

We too strive for balanced maps, where arbitrarily placed camping spots are removed. We block off and remove those kind of spots, because they Do Not Favour teamwork, contrarily to what you might believe, they favour camping. If you want to camp and hold once sided objectives, you should go to siege

Lack of options does not make for good design, it makes for repetitive left or right gameplay. You are free to play on Community if you feel they have a better map selection (I've seen the maps, there was a reason we removed them from official).

Your arguement has a point for some maps but not for the one I am referring to.

Yes, if the "possible camp" spot is somewhere in the middle of nowhere in the map where everyone will run when they are outnumbered, it is problematic.

HOWEVER

This is not the case for many maps, especially river village. River village's "camp spot" was the tower that was EXACTLY in the middle. Exactly in the middle where also all the bloody battles were fought. People couldn't "run away from the battle and turtle up". They had to fight the other team in the middle and take over the tower. You had to balance the two teams, one trying to not get destroyed outside, the other guarding the tower from counter-attacks. Did camps happened? Yes, sure. But all of them were to blame on the opposite team that didn't take control of the tower right in the bloody middle.

So no, you arguement is completely garbage in this case. There IS strategy, there IS balance of forces needed and camping doesn't happen unless you actively try for it and the other team lets you. All these are strategy and counter-strategy elements.

[Arathian]

I actually agree that this map, if its the one tinged that shade of blue like a urinal cake, is a bad map.  One side spawns closer to the entrance to the tower if i recall, crossing the moat is really annoying, random dumb boats, tons of worthless unused space that is literally just blank empty ground, with 1 dumb tower in the middle for STR builds to camp.

Read my comment about the whole camp thingy. Also, if one team reaches the tower faster, then the solution is to balance the roads, not to lock the castle.

However maps of that nature CAN be good.  Like Arena, or that map with the bridge, a smaller tower, and all the stakes in the water.  Those maps are fantastic because they are small, symmetrical, very focused and fast.  Apparently there is a policy against "NO SYMMETRICAL MAPS" but I think that is misguided.  Sure, strive for a lot of maps to be dynamic slices of a battlefield with unique hills and stuff.  Like Field by the River, archetype for "good map."

But don't remove these maps forever just cuz you think there could be better ones!  Not having arena is a shame, and sometimes a symmetrical "gamey" type map can be more fun then any random plain or village.  I think of them as "Halo" maps because they are designed to be fun and fair first then some sort of gimmick second.

Bring Back Arena.  Bring Back Stakes And Planks Map.

no objections here

[Toodles]

They had to fight the other team in the middle and take over the tower. You had to balance the two teams, one trying to not get destroyed outside, the other guarding the tower from counter-attacks. Did camps happened? Yes, sure. But all of them were to blame on the opposite team that didn't take control of the tower right in the bloody middle.

YES, figuring out WHO was in control of the tower, WHETHER or not we had the numbers to take them, IF it was full of tincan maulers or just a bunch of archers... I fucking love it when a map REQUIRES me to think to win it and this one certainly pulled that off. I never camped that maps tower but I much prefered it when it was at least possible.

[Arathian]

YES, figuring out WHO was in control of the tower, WHETHER or not we had the numbers to take them, IF it was full of tincan maulers or just a bunch of archers... I fucking love it when a map REQUIRES me to think to win it and this one certainly pulled that off. I never camped that maps tower but I much prefered it when it was at least possible.

it also much encouraged actual tactical communication instead of the usual "lol ur mom suks muh dik XD"

[Jacko]

No my argument still holds Arathian, this was just a camp map, which got slightly better after the tower was removed. Now you have choices on the map, instead of just zerging or not zerging the tower.

Most, if not all of the well made maps are "asymmetrical symmetrical" (for lack of better wording); they leave you with lots of options depending on where the enemy is, so you can move and have an advantage and vice versa. Again, options, not lack of options should be the norm (is the norm even).

And no, Arena will never come back on the NA/EU1. It is too small to hold the players on prime time.

[Arathian]

No my argument still holds Arathian, this was just a camp map, which got slightly better after the tower was removed. Now you have choices on the map, instead of just zerging or not zerging the tower.

Most, if not all of the well made maps are "asymmetrical symmetrical" (for lack of better wording); they leave you with lots of options depending on where the enemy is, so you can move and have an advantage and vice versa. Again, options, not lack of options should be the norm (is the norm even).

And no, Arena will never come back on the NA/EU1. It is too small to hold the players on prime time.

You removed the choice of "zerging the tower" or "zerging outside" and just left "zerg outside". No tower, no nothing :/

It is a bump for a really old thread, I know, but we were discussing this on irc.