Author Topic: Playing archer STF for a few days and...  (Read 2422 times)

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Offline Lichen

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Re: Playing archer STF for a few days and...
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2012, 12:34:24 am »
0
I feel like an epileptic squirrel, constantly looking around for impending doom that is cavalry.
Cavalry in its current state is just draining to play against for any infantry. They are literally 'ninja' cav. For me it's very tiring constantly turning around paranoid about cav constantly because you can't hear them until it's too late. And then when you aren't constantly looking behind you are of course lanced in the back. I want to play a game that relaxes me not stresses me. It's one of the big reasons (possibly the main reason) I don't play battle much anymore. I just play DTV instead.

Offline Teeth

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Re: Playing archer STF for a few days and...
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2012, 12:41:02 am »
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getting melee infantry to protect archers is the current tactical answer to your woes. 

Next question please.
Shut up. You should've really stopped using tactics and teamplay as an argument for balance after seeing it not work for two years.

Most important question here Bjord, which will determine your sexual preference. Do you kite or not?

Offline Torben

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Re: Playing archer STF for a few days and...
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2012, 01:07:49 am »
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Pippi Langstrumpf?

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Ja, war sein cav alt früher : )
Yes, I know from whence I came! Discontented as a flame, Upon myself I live and glow. All I grasp like lightning flashes, All I leave behind is ashes
Flame I am - that much I know!

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Offline Smoothrich

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Re: Playing archer STF for a few days and...
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2012, 01:29:57 am »
+4
Cavalry in its current state is just draining to play against for any infantry. They are literally 'ninja' cav. For me it's very tiring constantly turning around paranoid about cav constantly because you can't hear them until it's too late. And then when you aren't constantly looking behind you are of course lanced in the back. I want to play a game that relaxes me not stresses me. It's one of the big reasons (possibly the main reason) I don't play battle much anymore. I just play DTV instead.

Battle server gets worse daily and more and more players leave it because of how unfun it is for melee players due to the dominance of ranged and cav.  Valor system is a bone thrown to them but only rewards people who blob with strength builds and shields anyways. 

Players who complain about battle being much less fun then ever before get told to use TEAMWORK and devs post "2HANDED HEROES SHOULD BE ONLY CLASS IN GAME" but it has nothing to do with that.  Its become a very unsatisfying gameplay experience on battle for a casual melee player who isn't being a tryhard with a clan stack.  This is due to cav being so popular with its hybridization, speed, survability, and insane damage output, and archers having so many advantages over other footmen (more damage, more speed, cover, choosing battles easier than cav).

I know melee players who are really good (like me, heh) can help their team win and do lots of damage and all of that.  But for a LOT of players trying out cRPG on battle, or veteran players who are looking to have fun and aren't in a giant clan to banner stack (like me and many others), hell some clans even go on siege.. battle mode just feels very outdated, the point system isn't balanced, and the way cav and archers handle in a 1 life no respawn all maps are hills or plains server rotation with no class limits or proper team balance.. its just bad game design.

if you wonder why this mod has such a small playerbase and in reality doesn't grow at all, only gets smaller, its because battle server gameplay is generally unfun, extremely punishing for new players, and cav and ranged's power levels are a joke in a game that is only compelling because of the melee system.

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Offline Joker86

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Re: Playing archer STF for a few days and...
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2012, 01:36:32 am »
+5
And I keep on preaching the same thing over and over, from thread to thread. Perhaps one day the devs will honour it with an answer.



I think most people who are complaining about the inf vs. archer gameplay are not complaining about the "effectivity" of an archer (his damage, his accuracy, his rate of fire, whatever), they are complaining about two things:

a) kiting
b) the amount of archers

Any change which aims towards reducing the motivation of archers to run instead of fighting by improving their melee capabilities will not work, or will only be a sub-par quality solution.

Archers fight over distance, infantry fights in melee. Having archers to fight in melee almost as good as infantry would mean, that infantry would have to fight over range almost as good as archers (to keep things fair). As infantry doesn't fight over range at all, the only conclusion would be that archers should have the ranged effectivity of a stone throwing peasant. Because not fighting over range at all is almost as good as throwing stones as peasant. You get the point?

Don't try to merge two classes into one. Archers would be reduced to some infantry/archer hybrids, and the game would lose an entire class. Just keep it like in all those strategy games, like Warcraft. You have your human foot soldiers and the dwarven gunners. Just don't let the enemy Orcs get in melee range to your gunners, or they are gone. That's the balance of the game. It would be highly unfair if the melee fighter could be killed with good chances while approaching his target, and then, when he finally made it, his target has still good chances beating him in melee. I don't know about you guys, but when I play the sitting duck for a bunch of archers, but still, with some clever behaviour and a bit of luck manage to reach them, I want to be able to slaughter them. Everything else would be unbalanced.

Now to sum everything above up: archers engage over distance, that's why they should suck in melee. That's why it is okay if archers are afraid of fighting in melee.

"But how am I supposed to kill archers then as infantry?" people might ask. And it's a perfectly valid question, and we can imagine a lot of ideas from higher ATH for infantry to high item weight for bows and arrows, but to be honest, I think being faster than infantry is an important part of the archer role, so I wouldn't change this either.

I'd rather have people concentrate on following question: why should infantry always have to kill the archers?

In my eyes, the gamemode is the problem. In battle infantry DOES have to kill archers and cav, but can't unless the classes allow it, while infantry doesn't necessariliy have to "allow" archers and cav to kill them. That's where the frustration comes from. Both archers and cavalry are much more flexible in who they can engage and who they want to evade. Even if you lower their effectivity accordingly, they will always be the "acting", the "active" parts of a team, while infantry will always only remain the "reacting", the "passive" part. This is why many players complain about archers or cavalry, although both classes are not really OP. It's a "gameplay feeling" issue, not a balance issue. Point b) from above, the amount of archers, is only a reaction to point a). Change a), and b) will change as well.

If you change the goal of the game from killing everybody (which is a really plain goal) to something more interesting, like conquering the majority of all flags on the map or something like that, things would change. It would move infantry into the key role, as it is the best class for conquering and holding terrain. Archers and cavalry could only accomplish the objective of capturing a flag if the enemy infantry allows it (by not being at said flag). Which would turn infantry into the acting, the archers and cavalry into the reacting elements (it would be still fine for archers and cavalry, as they can still enjoy their higher flexibility). The two latter classes would become pure support classes, which they are supposed to be, while infantry would now truly become the main class to win battles. In (almost) any scenario possible, which contains conquering flags.

That's why I say you need to replace (yes, replace, not complement) battle mode with conquest mode. It would solve so many problems!
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Logen

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Re: Playing archer STF for a few days and...
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2012, 01:41:41 am »
+3
Most people are already too biased
I'm totally not biased, but
feel like a squirrel, puny and despicable.
Thats exactly how archers should feel like

Offline Dillinger

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Re: Playing archer STF for a few days and...
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2012, 03:04:51 am »
0
And I keep on preaching the same thing over and over, from thread to thread. Perhaps one day the devs will honour it with an answer.



I think most people who are complaining about the inf vs. archer gameplay are not complaining about the "effectivity" of an archer (his damage, his accuracy, his rate of fire, whatever), they are complaining about two things:

a) kiting
b) the amount of archers

Any change which aims towards reducing the motivation of archers to run instead of fighting by improving their melee capabilities will not work, or will only be a sub-par quality solution.

Archers fight over distance, infantry fights in melee. Having archers to fight in melee almost as good as infantry would mean, that infantry would have to fight over range almost as good as archers (to keep things fair). As infantry doesn't fight over range at all, the only conclusion would be that archers should have the ranged effectivity of a stone throwing peasant. Because not fighting over range at all is almost as good as throwing stones as peasant. You get the point?

Don't try to merge two classes into one. Archers would be reduced to some infantry/archer hybrids, and the game would lose an entire class. Just keep it like in all those strategy games, like Warcraft. You have your human foot soldiers and the dwarven gunners. Just don't let the enemy Orcs get in melee range to your gunners, or they are gone. That's the balance of the game. It would be highly unfair if the melee fighter could be killed with good chances while approaching his target, and then, when he finally made it, his target has still good chances beating him in melee. I don't know about you guys, but when I play the sitting duck for a bunch of archers, but still, with some clever behaviour and a bit of luck manage to reach them, I want to be able to slaughter them. Everything else would be unbalanced.

Now to sum everything above up: archers engage over distance, that's why they should suck in melee. That's why it is okay if archers are afraid of fighting in melee.

"But how am I supposed to kill archers then as infantry?" people might ask. And it's a perfectly valid question, and we can imagine a lot of ideas from higher ATH for infantry to high item weight for bows and arrows, but to be honest, I think being faster than infantry is an important part of the archer role, so I wouldn't change this either.

I'd rather have people concentrate on following question: why should infantry always have to kill the archers?

In my eyes, the gamemode is the problem. In battle infantry DOES have to kill archers and cav, but can't unless the classes allow it, while infantry doesn't necessariliy have to "allow" archers and cav to kill them. That's where the frustration comes from. Both archers and cavalry are much more flexible in who they can engage and who they want to evade. Even if you lower their effectivity accordingly, they will always be the "acting", the "active" parts of a team, while infantry will always only remain the "reacting", the "passive" part. This is why many players complain about archers or cavalry, although both classes are not really OP. It's a "gameplay feeling" issue, not a balance issue. Point b) from above, the amount of archers, is only a reaction to point a). Change a), and b) will change as well.

If you change the goal of the game from killing everybody (which is a really plain goal) to something more interesting, like conquering the majority of all flags on the map or something like that, things would change. It would move infantry into the key role, as it is the best class for conquering and holding terrain. Archers and cavalry could only accomplish the objective of capturing a flag if the enemy infantry allows it (by not being at said flag). Which would turn infantry into the acting, the archers and cavalry into the reacting elements (it would be still fine for archers and cavalry, as they can still enjoy their higher flexibility). The two latter classes would become pure support classes, which they are supposed to be, while infantry would now truly become the main class to win battles. In (almost) any scenario possible, which contains conquering flags.

That's why I say you need to replace (yes, replace, not complement) battle mode with conquest mode. It would solve so many problems!

+1,000,000

Offline Turkhammer

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Re: Playing archer STF for a few days and...
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2012, 04:39:30 am »
0
Stakes would be nice, but getting melee infantry to protect archers is the current tactical answer to your woes. 

Next question please.

Now why would this get voted down?

Offline Nehvar

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Re: Playing archer STF for a few days and...
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2012, 04:47:19 am »
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I feel like an epileptic squirrel, constantly looking around for impending doom that is cavalry. It's like putting points in PD gives you a red bullseye on your back that only people with Riding skill can see.

Now I see why archers max out their ath. I think it's time for some new features in the game, like deployable stakes. Maybe we'd get some better mentality for archers, making them less epileptic maybe.

What do you guys think? I'm not making a suggestion, rather I'm lifting issues and hinting at possible solutions.

You described exactly how I feel when playing on NA_1.  I often spend the entire round twirling about like some flaming ballerina, looking out for that lance-to-the-ass that I know is coming sooner or later.  It gets tiresome pretty damn quick.

I am all for additional anti-cavalry measures like the deployable stakes you mentioned.  They could one-shot horses that move over them at "couching speed".  Make them affordable and 1-slot and I'll carry two with me to battle instead of my usual backup/utility two-hander.
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Offline Taser

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Re: Playing archer STF for a few days and...
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2012, 05:58:30 am »
+1
Yes do stakes!

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^ would be badass.

Also when it comes to battle vs siege lately, I've been sticking to siege unless the pop dies then I go to community THEN I go to NA 1. More fun lately.
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Offline Largg

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Re: Playing archer STF for a few days and...
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2012, 07:25:46 am »
+1
Ja, war sein cav alt früher : )

So Pippi was Bjord? He was such a big retard I still remember him back from when I started playing. He THOUGHT I teamhit his horse in clash and what did he do? Grief me for two maps. Teamhitting, bumping and insulting, you name it. I wish I knew I could report him at forums or anything, I was so fucking pissed.

Offline Vibe

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Re: Playing archer STF for a few days and...
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2012, 07:38:27 am »
0
From an Arabian Cav rider perspective:

try to approach archers
get your precious 20k+ gold horse killed in 2 arrows/bolts or one throwing thingy

Offline Cepeshi

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Re: Playing archer STF for a few days and...
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2012, 08:41:20 am »
0
From an Arabian Cav rider perspective:

try to approach archers
get your precious 20k+ gold horse killed in 2 arrows/bolts or one throwing thingy

speedbonus works both ways, good to know!

Offline Vibe

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Re: Playing archer STF for a few days and...
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2012, 08:48:34 am »
0
speedbonus works both ways, good to know!

It's the same for side attacks aka 0 speed bonus. But I guess it's intended. Except Destrier can tank a fuckton of arrows while still maintaining decent speed and maneuver. Nerf destrier.

Offline Cepeshi

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Re: Playing archer STF for a few days and...
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2012, 09:06:19 am »
0
It's the same for side attacks aka 0 speed bonus. But I guess it's intended. Except Destrier can tank a fuckton of arrows while still maintaining decent speed and maneuver. Nerf destrier.

Destriers are the new behemoths of battlefields! Yeah, they are pretty awesome, especially loomd.