Author Topic: EU1 These Days.  (Read 16164 times)

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Offline Arrowblood

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Re: EU1 These Days.
« Reply #120 on: August 29, 2012, 03:42:47 pm »
0
A 18 21 Archer Hybrid Build will never be so effective like   a 15 24 Arbalester.

Offline Bjord

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Re: EU1 These Days.
« Reply #121 on: August 29, 2012, 03:58:16 pm »
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That's only because the power draw requirement for bows. Crossbows were designed to be usable by practically anyone. You need practice to use a bow.

At least, that's the realism argument.

The balance argument is that crossbows can not be reloaded while moving. Mobility, in a game like Warband, means everything. This is why archers will always be more effective, and more dynamic than crossbowers. A static target in battle is more likely to be eliminated than a constantly moving archer.
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Offline Chagan_Arslan

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Re: EU1 These Days.
« Reply #122 on: August 29, 2012, 04:12:52 pm »
+2
My overall point with my earlier post is, that the melee combat in this game is what makes it truly unique and what has kept most of us playing all these years. I'm not saying that archery and cav don't require skill, that type of gameplay is just closer to what you can find in other games and that is not why I'm here.

what other game have such fine cavalry gameplay as MOUNT & BLADE ?

Offline Molly

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Re: EU1 These Days.
« Reply #123 on: August 29, 2012, 04:19:07 pm »
+3
what other game have such fine cavalry gameplay as MOUNT & BLADE ?
By fine you mean driving around on a GoCart and couching people which requires exactly 0 skill?
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Offline Chagan_Arslan

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Re: EU1 These Days.
« Reply #124 on: August 29, 2012, 04:32:08 pm »
-4
By fine you mean driving around on a GoCart and couching people which requires exactly 0 skill?

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Offline Tzar

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Re: EU1 These Days.
« Reply #125 on: August 29, 2012, 04:42:32 pm »
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By fine you mean driving around on a GoCart and couching people which requires exactly 0 skill?

Pretty much describes anyone using a loomed Arabian GoCart with lance....  :D
I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

Offline Pejlaen

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Re: EU1 These Days.
« Reply #126 on: August 29, 2012, 06:05:21 pm »
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buff damage nerf accuracy, archery is like a laser guided Weapon system anno 4127
Allthough it would kill the fun of playing one, its practicly the same as removing it.
Archery Is just not balanceable, i think.

Rather make arrows have much lower impact on heavy armor/plate wearers, and buff accuracy or let it remain as it is.
It is to powerful imo to be able to take out tincans or heavy armored enemies as an archer the way it is now. Either work on the hitboxes so that it will take more skillful/lucky shooting to hit the weaker parts of the armor such as armpits, places where the plate overlaps and so on.
If you ask me as an archer, it would have been a pain have trained accuracy and then have it taken away for the element of lucky hardhitting shots instead.
skilled individuals, putting them together can create a very deadly and effective team.

The bow, it represents, that a skilled archer can pick a mighty man at arms off from a distance.

Offline Gurnisson

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Re: EU1 These Days.
« Reply #127 on: August 29, 2012, 06:29:24 pm »
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buff damage nerf accuracy, archery is like a laser guided Weapon system anno 4127

Make it require no skill at all. How about no?
I voted Gurnisson cause of his fucking bendy pike, I swear noone can roflcopter stab like he can.

Offline BlackMilk

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Re: EU1 These Days.
« Reply #128 on: August 29, 2012, 06:41:04 pm »
+1
Pretty much describes anyone using a loomed Arabian GoCart with lance....  :D
Selling a +1 Arabian Warhorse cheap on the market btw :wink:

Offline Arrowblood

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Re: EU1 These Days.
« Reply #129 on: August 29, 2012, 07:06:16 pm »
+2
What about a new  camera position for  decent first person aiming and no crosshair.

Offline Tzar

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Re: EU1 These Days.
« Reply #130 on: August 29, 2012, 07:17:25 pm »
+2
What about a new  camera position for  decent first person aiming and no crosshair.
 

+1 would make archery interesting an not just a point an click fest....


Fuckin miss this mod  :D every class was fun to play
I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

Offline Joker86

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Re: EU1 These Days.
« Reply #131 on: August 29, 2012, 07:54:27 pm »
+1
I am a lazy bastard, that's why I only copy the post I made somewhere else:



I think most people who are complaining about the inf vs. archer gameplay are not complaining about the "effectivity" of an archer (his damage, his accuracy, his rate of fire, whatever), they are complaining about two things:

a) kiting
b) the amount of archers

Any change which aims towards reducing the motivation of archers to run instead of fighting by improving their melee capabilities will not work, or will only be a sub-par quality solution.

Archers fight over distance, infantry fights in melee. Having archers to fight in melee almost as good as infantry would mean, that infantry would have to fight over range almost as good as archers (to keep things fair). As infantry doesn't fight over range at all, the only conclusion would be that archers should have the ranged effectivity of a stone throwing peasant. Because not fighting over range at all is almost as good as throwing stones as peasant. You get the point?

Don't try to merge two classes into one. Archers would be reduced to some infantry/archer hybrids, and the game would lose an entire class. Just keep it like in all those strategy games, like Warcraft. You have your human foot soldiers and the dwarven gunners. Just don't let the enemy Orcs get in melee range to your gunners, or they are gone. That's the balance of the game. It would be highly unfair if the melee fighter could be killed with good chances while approaching his target, and then, when he finally made it, his target has still good chances beating him in melee. I don't know about you guys, but when I play the sitting duck for a bunch of archers, but still, with some clever behaviour and a bit of luck manage to reach them, I want to be able to slaughter them. Everything else would be unbalanced.

Now to sum everything above up: archers engage over distance, that's why they should suck in melee. That's why it is okay if archers are afraid of fighting in melee.

"But how am I supposed to kill archers then as infantry?" people might ask. And it's a perfectly valid question, and we can imagine a lot of ideas from higher ATH for infantry to high item weight for bows and arrows, but to be honest, I think being faster than infantry is an important part of the archer role, so I wouldn't change this either.

I'd rather have people concentrate on following question: why should infantry always have to kill the archers?

In my eyes, the gamemode is the problem. In battle infantry DOES have to kill archers and cav, but can't unless the classes allow it, while infantry doesn't necessariliy have to "allow" archers and cav to kill them. That's where the frustration comes from. Both archers and cavalry are much more flexible in who they can engage and who they want to evade. Even if you lower their effectivity accordingly, they will always be the "acting", the "active" parts of a team, while infantry will always only remain the "reacting", the "passive" part. This is why many players complain about archers or cavalry, although both classes are not really OP. It's a "gameplay feeling" issue, not a balance issue. Point b) from above, the amount of archers, is only a reaction to point a). Change a), and b) will change as well.

If you change the goal of the game from killing everybody (which is a really plain goal) to something more interesting, like conquering the majority of all flags on the map or something like that, things would change. It would move infantry into the key role, as it is the best class for conquering and holding terrain. Archers and cavalry could only accomplish the objective of capturing a flag if the enemy infantry allows it (by not being at said flag). Which would turn infantry into the acting, the archers and cavalry into the reacting elements (it would be still fine for archers and cavalry, as they can still enjoy their higher flexibility). The two latter classes would become pure support classes, which they are supposed to be, while infantry would now truly become the main class to win battles. In (almost) any scenario possible, which contains conquering flags.

That's why I say you need to replace (yes, replace, not complement) battle mode with conquest mode. It would solve so many problems!
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Joseph Porta

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Re: EU1 These Days.
« Reply #132 on: August 29, 2012, 08:13:41 pm »
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Make it require no skill at all. How about no?
i am so confused atm..

please explain how less accuracy makes it easier for them?
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Offline Gurnisson

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Re: EU1 These Days.
« Reply #133 on: August 29, 2012, 08:21:17 pm »
+3
i am so confused atm..

please explain how less accuracy makes it easier for them?

Archers dealing a lot of damage while having bad accuracy. Low skill ceiling, bad players being as effective as good players = bad for the game.
I voted Gurnisson cause of his fucking bendy pike, I swear noone can roflcopter stab like he can.

Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

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Re: EU1 These Days.
« Reply #134 on: August 29, 2012, 08:24:19 pm »
-2
Archers dealing a lot of damage while having bad accuracy. Low skill ceiling, bad players being as effective as good players = bad for the game.
But, all archers are bad players going easy mode with bowz.  :rolleyes:
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1H stab is the fastest, strongest and longest 1H animation. There's no reason NOT to use it in all instances. I don't know if it's OP, but it's boring. 1H used to be fun because you had a fast (left), long (right) and the most devastating attack (stab) and had to choose the best attack for each occasion.