Heavy armor and Agility in Strategus

[Tanken]

Everyone knows ultimate Strat Build is 42/3,

14 Powerstrike.





Duh.

[TugBoat]

I agree with you that strength builds are more powerful in strat, but in what way?

Strength builds are the ultimate 1-shotters and kill stealers! They also work better in formation than agi builds do.

Since there's a lot of team wounding, arrows and such, str builds in full plate tend to live longer in these massive 70 on 70 melee encounters. You also can survive a nice lance hit that others might not. When you have 3 str guys focusing you swinging 3 different directions, you can't block all three at once, and then some tool (sometimes me ) comes up behind you with a +3 morningstar and ruins your day.

On the other hand there's things I did in that strat battle that heavy str builds couldn't.

I wasted a lot of cav's time going far left. They would chase me and I was able to avoid a lot of lances until PhantomZero started chasing me (he's a very accurate coucher). I was able to get to the enemy spawn about five times, and I killed at least one person, usually more, every time. My KD wasn't as high as some of the str build guys like Goretooth or some of the shielders, but I was keeping cav occupied, getting kills, keeping the guys at their flag on their toes. I was useful in more ways than what my KD showed.

But like I said, I think that STR builds are able to deal out more damage quickly, killing people faster which reduces the amount of damage they're able to do. They're able to survive lances that other build would not, enabling them to keep fighting. They can take more arrows, more bolts, and more melee hits, which occupies the enemy for longer and also gives them more time to whack another fool on the head with a morningstar.

Get into a one on one fight as a heavy STR build vs an agi build like me, and you might not win, but that's not what strat is about in most cases. It's about these huge head on infantry charges, battles of attrition involving cavalry in field battles, tons of archers in any case... and agi builds like me will always struggle under these circumstances, but str builds are built for them.

[SeQuel]

People are fast in heavy armor as agi specs. Heavy armor with agi is a very good build. I definitely don't think it is useless. And I definitely don't think it promotes str crutchers as much as you imply. I think the STR crutchers comes from the imbalance of str vs agi more so than it does because of plate in strat. I do agree that plate shouldn't be as prevalent in strat, but not because it hinders agi builds like you say.

Very fast? I disagree, heavy armor weighs you down quite a fair bit. My point is that in battle it's fine because Agility builds excel in 1v1's and use their speed to their advantage. However in Strategus you have teamwork so it's a lot harder to have 1v1's and it's a lot harder to flank. Topping all of that off with the weight of the gear you're not getting the full effects of athletics which plays such a huge role in your build.

How does it not promote Str crutchers? I strongly believe that people don't want to go agility builds because it's not as good as STR when it comes to Strategus. Why should I have to wear plate to survive 2-3 hits at most but be weighed down losing my speed advantage and then dealing no damage due to all of the heavy armor in strategus currently because I have such little power strike.

I agree with you that strength builds are more powerful in strat, but in what way?

Strength builds are the ultimate 1-shotters and kill stealers! They also work better in formation than agi builds do.

Since there's a lot of team wounding, arrows and such, str builds in full plate tend to live longer in these massive 70 on 70 melee encounters. You also can survive a nice lance hit that others might not. When you have 3 str guys focusing you swinging 3 different directions, you can't block all three at once, and then some tool (sometimes me ) comes up behind you with a +3 morningstar and ruins your day.

On the other hand there's things I did in that strat battle that heavy str builds couldn't.

I wasted a lot of cav's time going far left. They would chase me and I was able to avoid a lot of lances until PhantomZero started chasing me (he's a very accurate coucher). I was able to get to the enemy spawn about five times, and I killed at least one person, usually more, every time. My KD wasn't as high as some of the str build guys like Goretooth or some of the shielders, but I was keeping cav occupied, getting kills, keeping the guys at their flag on their toes. I was useful in more ways than what my KD showed.

Edit - Just saw your response Tugboat

Sure, that is a valid argument but when I was TKoV we were SPECIFICALLY told to stay together and not to wander. Since it was their battle and their command I wasent going to disobey.

[Gricks]

Have you been on NA server any time recently? The majority is str plate anyways. Armor is too powerful and STR is too powerful. I don't think this is a strat issue.

And I didn't mean agi builds were very fast in plate, I just don't think plate weighs people down enough. Again, I agree with you that plate shouldn't be as easily obtained as it is in its current state, but not for your reasons. I just don't think that will change people's builds. STR will be king in team fights because of the damage output and how much more damage you can take regardless of what armor you are wearing. Compared to an equally armored agi build in a team fight, str wins every time (plate or not).

I just think the two issues (plate being cheap/agi v str) don't have as much of a correlation as you believe.

[Winterly]

Knocks down everything that troubles me SeQuel, great post.  I'm sitting here always thinking...I feel fine in battle, but in Strategus, I feel like a worthless peasant when facing an army of Milanese Plates.  The army structure and formation in Strat is usually very tight knit and with constant spawning, makes flanking very difficult. 

When I'm debating what I should do to be able to excel in Strat battles, the only thing that really comes to mind is to either be an archer or be a 10 PS hulk. Earlier in tonight's fight, I still had a pretty bad time trying to get a clean hit off the Milanese plates with 6 PS and a MW LS. 

The problem was the supporting pikes/spears that would force me to maneuver into an awkward position in which my slashes wouldn't have the momentum to completely pierce the armor without me getting hit.  Usually it ends up being a weapon bounce and stun causing me to die.

[Zanze]

The only problem I ever had with 15 str was that I couldn't wear the 16 str requirement milanese plate and was forced to use a common shirt basically at one point. Killing people isn't hard, with 8 athletics you just abuse the hell out of speed bonus. Now, fighting on the walls in cramped fights where teamhits are flying left and right and you can't maneuver because this idiot behind you has his shield raised and insists on humping your back... It pays to have Strength.

Now, agi could use a buff. A very...very tiny buff. If they increase WM damage too much or something along those lines, they would need to nerf speed bonus or else agi would be the next fotm and be overpowered as hell. As it stands, with 6 athletics I can quadruple the amount of damage I do in a single hit just by running at you. I've even gone as far as 1 shotting my 24/12 shield friend. (He was wearing mail armor instead of his usual +3 lamellar though)

[SeQuel]

Have you been on NA server any time recently? The majority is str plate anyways. Armor is too powerful and STR is too powerful. I don't think this is a strat issue.

And I didn't mean agi builds were very fast in plate, I just don't think plate weighs people down enough. Again, I agree with you that plate shouldn't be as easily obtained as it is in its current state, but not for your reasons. I just don't think that will change people's builds. STR will be king in team fights because of the damage output and how much more damage you can take regardless of what armor you are wearing. Compared to an equally armored agi build in a team fight, str wins every time (plate or not).

I just think the two issues (plate being cheap/agi v str) don't have as much of a correlation as you believe.

I don't think you should be comparing battle to strategus to be honest. It's a lot easier to deal with people in plate in battle then in strategus. As I've previously said dealing with someone in battle who is in plate you can generally get a 1v1 and you get to choose what you're wearing, you also get to choose whether or not you can run or not. In strategus you get and you work with it, if you're told to charge and clash you do just that. In battle I wear light armor since it highlights my build I don't use plate that weights me down.

If they made armor to be a lot harder to obtain in strategus then it wouldn't be such a problem but the fact that hospitaller for example can field a 2k army with full plate is ridiculous. I wouldn't be surprised if DRZ can field quadruple that.

As for people being warded off due to it being a lot weaker in strategus I'm seriously debating it and I've spoke with others on steam who agree with me. Why play a class that's at a disadvantage? Now if we even want to go deeper where people CARE about their performance then they won't play builds they enjoy but builds they do well with. If agility is at a constant disadvantage that will tend to ward off people like that. My performance is shit, but luckily people still hire my horrible ass. I am 100% confident if I were to respec as STR I would do at least 50% better.

Edit -

The army structure and formation in Strat is usually very tight knit and with constant spawning, makes flanking very difficult. 

That is exactly one of my points, in strategus flanking is difficult and so is using your speed to your advantage, on top of all of that you can't roam or do your own thing like in battle because you need to follow orders.

The only problem I ever had with 15 str was that I couldn't wear the 16 str requirement milanese plate and was forced to use a common shirt basically at one point. Killing people isn't hard, with 8 athletics you just abuse the hell out of speed bonus. Now, fighting on the walls in cramped fights where teamhits are flying left and right and you can't maneuver because this idiot behind you has his shield raised and insists on humping your back... It pays to have Strength.

That is another point I have not brought up but you raise a good one of the sieges being really cramped for agility to fully utilize it's build.

As for abusing the hell out of speed is hard when both armies are using full plate. Now if plate were harder to get I think agility would have a much better place in Strategus.

[Zerran]

Basically what ToD said.

I think rather than make equipment hard to purchase, there needs to be more reason for people to fight each other. No matter how expensive equipment is, if you have enough time you can outfit an army in plate. Plus, sitting around just crafting stuff without fighting is boring.

So, like I said, there needs to be some sort of REASON for people to go out and fight each other regularly, and not just sit around crafting plate.

[SeQuel]

Basically what ToD said.

I think rather than make equipment hard to purchase, there needs to be more reason for people to fight each other. No matter how expensive equipment is, if you have enough time you can outfit an army in plate. Plus, sitting around just crafting stuff without fighting is boring.

So, like I said, there needs to be some sort of REASON for people to go out and fight each other regularly, and not just sit around crafting plate.

Agreed, another good idea.

[PhantomZero]

That is exactly one of my points, in strategus flanking is difficult and so is using your speed to your advantage, on top of all of that you can't roam or do your own thing like in battle because you need to follow orders.

This is false, the Superior Goon Tactics handbook regularly calls upon flanking using infantry. With the dissolution of LLJK this and more has been lost to time. However I will give you a tip, it is not a flank if the entire army goes to one side or the other, such is the case that happened today. And roaming around by yourself in a strategus battle is a good way to get picked off by cavalry.

Hospitallers had a good opportunity in which they managed to knock down all the flags, but they just couldn't keep them down. The siege towers were a nice touch and really helped despite it being a field battle, though having them bug out and be invulnerable was kind of shitty.

It has been just about a year, I would be shocked if the hospitaller had not been able been able to equip 10,000 soldiers with champ milanese plate. Sure in the long run you could probably outproduce/attrit them, but few of these battles take places in the field, meaning when you lose a battle you lose your production.


I had a few thoughts that would prevent such turtling, such as specific strategus xp that you could apply to command skills and such, like reduced troop upkeep or being able to bring more soldiers to the fight. In this manner factions that fought regularly would have an advantage over the hoarders to balance the equipment difference. A sort of "army tradition" if you will that might need to be maintained. Even if allied factions just fought each other for shits and giggles on the field to maintain army tradition it would still cost troops and equipment.

[Slamz]

Get your armies to carry a selection of +3 agility armor for you.

Also, I suspect that 2000 modestly armored troops would beat 1000 plate troops and cost less.  Milanese costs 3x as much as a Heavy Kuyak but certainly isn't 3x as good.  If you really wanted to defend a castle, you should be able to see the attack coming and run out there and meet them in the field with a couple of medium armor armies just to thin them out.  Then agility builds would be a lot more useful, not only for having lighter armor to fight in but for being in an open field.



Basically I think the problem is less to do with "omg plate everywhere" and more to do with a lack of strategy being employed by people finding themselves under attack by plate.

Troop tickets are cheap.  Plate is expensive.  Throw some lower cost armies at them.

[Slamz]

but few of these battles take places in the field, meaning when you lose a battle you lose your production.

Yeah but whose fault is that.  These 1000 troop armies aren't exactly fast.  You should generally see them coming.  You could also get people to stand outside somewhere as pickets and check strat now and then for an even greater change of seeing them coming.

There's no reason so many of these battles should take place in a fief.  A look at KDR history suggests there's really not much inherent advantage to fighting from the inside of a castle or town.  (Which does bring up the thought that maybe there should be more practical anti-siege weapons in the game.  Where's our boiling oil or ballistas or big rocks or things to shove away ladders, etc.  If cRPG were real life, nobody would build castles because there's no real advantage to them.)

[FRANK_THE_TANK]

Light infantry is still viable it's just not being used properly.

Don't blame the game for the (following comment isn't directed at any individual) commanders failure to use you effectively.

If your a fast hybrid xbow player you should be being deployed with say Cannary and malaclypse to push around the side and harass the enemy to open them up and drag off infantry.

With 2 long spears and an xbow you could sweep around back and drop flags in a field battle or bum rush healing tents and weapons racks in siege.

Sure your not going to bring down a tin can but you have options. Options that aren't called on very often in battles but that's a whole other issue.

I was in a battle today and the Templars had +3 Blue Gambisons for the archers and light infantry. Have a about 20-25% of your tickets glad in light armour is always a good idea and shouldn't be over looked. A couple of heavy hitting 2h hanging in the back of a shield wall able to leap out and fuck shit up is worth it alone.

IMO gear cost is fine, plate ain't all it's cracked up to be, you just need the weapons to stop it.

1h swords are pointless, you need maces and picks. Oh and arbs, lots of arbs.

Yeah but whose fault is that.  These 1000 troop armies aren't exactly fast.  You should generally see them coming.  You could also get people to stand outside somewhere as pickets and check strat now and then for an even greater change of seeing them coming.

There's no reason so many of these battles should take place in a fief.  A look at KDR history suggests there's really not much inherent advantage to fighting from the inside of a castle or town.  (Which does bring up the thought that maybe there should be more practical anti-siege weapons in the game.  Where's our boiling oil or ballistas or big rocks or things to shove away ladders, etc.  If cRPG were real life, nobody would build castles because there's no real advantage to them.)

Completely agree. One thing that would fix this is being able to build catapults on top of buildings. ATM the thing falls through and hits the ground but is then stuck in a building and is useless.

As far as smashing ladders goes Pikes are the way to go.

At the TKoV vs Hate castle siege the other day we had 4 guys running around with long spears smashing all the ladders, it worked a treat. Really need 8-12PS dudes with pikes doing it, blitz the ladders quick smart. We got a 2+ to 1 KD at that one. We had lots of healing tents up and kept people pumping back and forth.

The trick seems to be having a good siege team running around keeping the weapons racks and healing tents up and running about poking ladders and not actually fighting on the walls but just managing all the shit and keeping the commander aware of where the attackers are moving to place ladders.

[Kryser]

this topic really doesnt consider "battles" compared to sieges.


I've played in some strat field battles were plate monkies could not catch the agi guy constantly destroying their siege equipment and archers.

every 2 minutes people in teamspeak would be bitching and screaming "HERE HE COMES AGAIN, FUCK PROTECT ME GOD DAMIT HES ATTACKING ALL THE ARCHERS AGAIN, GAAAAAAA, U ASSHOLES SUCK!!!"

agi in siege stuck on a wall is pretty bad.

location, location, location

[Harpag]

Power builds for obvious reasons have in many cases a significant advantage, but from my point of view this is not the key problem here and I don't want talk about balance.

I'm interested how come some factions have gold for such heavy armors for most of their units, since they have so small amount of caravans and shity short trade routes. Indeed amazingly!

My faction is very rich and has a perfectly organized economy, trade and logistics (cheating and exploiting with over 1000 CD keys), nevertheless this is not possible for us to produce such expensive equipment because in our case it is absolutely impossible to spend money so lavishly, but some factions, despite losing wars and  territory, still have tons of gold for best heavy equipment.

Price reduction does not explain anything, because I'm not talking about neutral locations and I have a concrete point of reference.

God wills it again? Don't even try to make us fools because we all have eyes and see what's going on. Before you write a lie, think about this for a while, because here are people who can verify a lot of different things...