Author Topic: A catchy title to start a debate.  (Read 15026 times)

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Offline 22nd_deprav

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A catchy title to start a debate.
« on: July 30, 2012, 12:07:56 am »
+25
Lets add some common sense in crpg.

There's a lot of whine lately on the EU servers seeing the number of archers increasing and such...
Well today someone talked about "evolution", telling the evolution of warfare is more range. (Well, that kind of make sense, but since weapons in crpg don't and won't "evolve", they will eternaly stay bows and xbows, so that's not the "kind of evolution" we're interested in what follows)

Evolution is the fact that things take a different "shape" or behaviour to adapt their surrounding. So the evolution is tightely related to the environnement you're evolving in. That applies for pretty much everything, animals (us too), social behaviours, living things in general.

We can apply the principle of evolution on the behaviour of people playing crpg :

There was a time when the larger part of the players were two-hander users (including pole), making them easy targets since not protected from ranged weapons > people started making archers/crossbow characters to take advantage of this lack of protection. Nothing could be more logical, that's evolution.
That probably explains in part the fact that the number of horse users has increased as well, archers being easy targets for cavs.

But the tricky thing with evolution is that's there's an infinity of possibilities since the choices of a few will influence the actions of the rest and create a chain-reaction.

So I think It's time to remind people an obvious simple thing : mount&blade has a unique melee system and, I think, has been made with the main idea that the buyers/players will use and enjoy this unique and great melee system. And not act like retarded kids as we can see in crpg.

If you like to melee and you're fed up with ranged players, take a shield and learn to use it. Carrying a shield isn't "my old friendgish" and skill-less, it's a logical way to protect yourself against projectils and permits you to face multiple ennemies. And you'll have plenty occasion to prove yourself or other people you're not a "my old friend" when you meet an axe user and has to show him your manual block skills. A bit of self-condifence pardis, wearing pink doesn't make you gay, using a shield neither!

If you like to go on foot and you're fed up with cavs, take a spear and show dem horses how you can stop dem good.

Maybe then, I say MAYBE, the insane number of archers and cavs will slowly decrease seeing it will  suddenly become less easy for them to do their nasty tricks. And the game will find a balance again.

And if your built doesn't allow to use the kind of weapon you need to defend yourself against the class that piss you off the most, that means you made a retarded build like most of the crpg players because, once, a few 1337 players went full 2-handers, full archery or full pole to show everyone how pro they are.
That seems to be a settled thing, taking the worst part of the gameplay in pretty much any multiplayer game and exploiting it for e-penis reasons.

This is a Role Playing Game, there's no standards in what kind of build you should make, hybrid builds/ personnal builds, with more than 3 class are viable options.
Instead of that we witness an escalation of retarded overpowered builds and people whinning and raging at each others over other ubber unbalanced builds.


If you think your build is the best one but you keep raging at the other classes, well you're obviously wrong somewhere, take a step back and watch the painting.


In conclusion, the game will find its balance, not by whinning about which class to nerf/buff/nurf/berf, the only thing that needs a serious buff is the crowd's brain.

Edit :

aw yeah I'm a noble now, you're not allowed to TLDR me.
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Offline callahan9119

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2012, 12:18:57 am »
-13
Hello

Offline snipercapt

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2012, 12:19:11 am »
-5
tl;dr Everything has a counter, figure it out.

People still use shit from 12th century today, for example Microsoft Internet Explorer
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Offline Miwiw

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2012, 12:28:31 am »
+4
OP actually describes common sense. Who rages need to learn the skill "common sense".
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Offline Arathian

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2012, 12:29:38 am »
0
I can't be arsed to read that wall o' text, however I am sure I 100% agree with you.
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Offline snipercapt

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2012, 12:36:05 am »
0
Btw, nice 0% Infamy (Begins massive -1)
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Offline Teeth

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2012, 12:36:30 am »
-1
I hate using a shield, it shits on half the gameplay that I love. One does not throw away a huge part of his fun in a game to adapt to a class which could be simply fixed in a way that would be more fun to everyone. Oh and it blocks too slow for my twitchy playstyle.
 
And if your built doesn't allow to use the kind of weapon you need to defend yourself against a few 1337 players that went full archery to show everyone how pro they are.
The kind of weapon you speak of is ten athlethics and an all around shield. I have no problem at all with ranged. If, once I've dodged half a dozen of missiles, they would stand and fight.

They don't, every archer, save maybe 5%, is full archery. They all want that 10 more wpf instead of getting ps, and they all want those two stacks of bodkins instead of a sword. So they run away with their dinky little hammers. That should've been made impossible. Disable them from running away, because they are obviously not man enough to choose that option themselves, there is plenty of ways to do this. Named them about a hundred times already, take your pick. In return give them a lot more melee capabilities without touching their ranged capabilities.

There, game is fixed. Archers can shoot like they can now, can't run away, but have to switch to a melee weapon at which their characters are decently proficient. Now archers can also actually experience the reason why this game is the only game that really interests me. You guys will thank me later.

Devs can call me anyday for balance ideas, I'll have this game fixed in no time.

Offline Miwiw

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2012, 12:52:59 am »
+8
Teeth, I actually agree with you regarding kiting.

But did you notice what you just said?
You don't want to adapt your build to the situation and enemy class, but you want other players to adapt to the situation you prefer. You dont want to use a shield but you want to force Archers to change their build and get infantry skills.
You cannot ask for something if you dont want to give something. Thats wrong.
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Offline Lemmy_Winks

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2012, 12:54:18 am »
0
I didnt read this but i assume it was about archers being OP and counters and stuff. IMO cavalry is the counter to archery. The average archer is too fast for any normal melle to catch including sheilders, and even if they were most archers are smart enough to stay behind their melle and not let anyone get close to them. Cavalry is the only class that can actually run them down, sure some consider archery as a counter to cavalry and it can be effective agaisnt it if youve got multiple archers shooting at one guy. But its not hard if your cav to be a little careful and you can kill alot of archers, i target archers quite a bit because i used to be 2h along time ago and i developed a hatred for them because of that. Always shooting me and then running away, so i got a horse so they couldnt run away from fights anymore.
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Offline Rebelyell

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2012, 12:58:18 am »
0
I hate using a shield, it shits on half the gameplay that I love. One does not throw away a huge part of his fun in a game to adapt to a class which could be simply fixed in a way that would be more fun to everyone. Oh and it blocks too slow for my twitchy playstyle.
 The kind of weapon you speak of is ten athlethics and an all around shield. I have no problem at all with ranged. If, once I've dodged half a dozen of missiles, they would stand and fight.

They don't, every archer, save maybe 5%, is full archery. They all want that 10 more wpf instead of getting ps, and they all want those two stacks of bodkins instead of a sword. So they run away with their dinky little hammers. That should've been made impossible. Disable them from running away, because they are obviously not man enough to choose that option themselves, there is plenty of ways to do this. Named them about a hundred times already, take your pick. In return give them a lot more melee capabilities without touching their ranged capabilities.

There, game is fixed. Archers can shoot like they can now, can't run away, but have to switch to a melee weapon at which their characters are decently proficient. Now archers can also actually experience the reason why this game is the only game that really interests me. You guys will thank me later.

Devs can call me anyday for balance ideas, I'll have this game fixed in no time.

they do not fight in meele because they are better with bows, and only fool is trying to fight half naked with
no wpf in other weapon against some armored knight with op GS,
they are faster so they runs away, why they are faster because game mechanics force hem to play like that.


I don't really need shield to survive but dam its way easier with shield.
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Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2012, 01:02:14 am »
0
I hate using a shield, it shits on half the gameplay that I love. One does not throw away a huge part of his fun in a game to adapt to a class which could be simply fixed in a way that would be more fun to everyone. Oh and it blocks too slow for my twitchy playstyle.
 The kind of weapon you speak of is ten athlethics and an all around shield. I have no problem at all with ranged. If, once I've dodged half a dozen of missiles, they would stand and fight.

They don't, every archer, save maybe 5%, is full archery. They all want that 10 more wpf instead of getting ps, and they all want those two stacks of bodkins instead of a sword. So they run away with their dinky little hammers. That should've been made impossible. Disable them from running away, because they are obviously not man enough to choose that option themselves, there is plenty of ways to do this. Named them about a hundred times already, take your pick. In return give them a lot more melee capabilities without touching their ranged capabilities.

There, game is fixed. Archers can shoot like they can now, can't run away, but have to switch to a melee weapon at which their characters are decently proficient. Now archers can also actually experience the reason why this game is the only game that really interests me. You guys will thank me later.

Devs can call me anyday for balance ideas, I'll have this game fixed in no time.
Archers don't need melee capabilities added, if the devs would scale ath effectivity for people with pd so that 10 ath wouldn't be much better than 5 ath for them they'd be able to make decent melee/my old friendcher hybrids, but, if kiting is taking out actual archery would need a small accuracy buff, a small speed buff, and, after making pierce damage longbow only, a small damage buff.
1H stab is the fastest, strongest and longest 1H animation. There's no reason NOT to use it in all instances. I don't know if it's OP, but it's boring. 1H used to be fun because you had a fast (left), long (right) and the most devastating attack (stab) and had to choose the best attack for each occasion.

Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2012, 01:06:50 am »
-2
they are faster so they runs away, why they are faster because game mechanics force hem to play like that.
No, they're faster 'cuss playing like that is easier to get kills with no risk and therefore make gay builds to support that.

lvl 29
18/21
6pd
6ps
7wm
1ath

160 my old friendchery wpf
49 wpf in whatever the fuck they decide.

And I repeat this is only fucking level 29, at level 30 they'd have 3 more skill points to distribute, and they could always take the 1 ath out of my build and be viable shielder/my old friendchers.
1H stab is the fastest, strongest and longest 1H animation. There's no reason NOT to use it in all instances. I don't know if it's OP, but it's boring. 1H used to be fun because you had a fast (left), long (right) and the most devastating attack (stab) and had to choose the best attack for each occasion.

Offline Teeth

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2012, 01:11:12 am »
0
Teeth, I actually agree with you regarding kiting.

But did you notice what you just said?
You don't want to adapt your build to the situation and enemy class, but you want other players to adapt to the situation you prefer. You dont want to use a shield but you want to force Archers to change their build and get infantry skills.
You cannot ask for something if you dont want to give something. Thats wrong.
That is because my unwillingness to adapt is because adapting would reduce my hands on time with the 4 directional deliciousness that makes this game into what it is, you know, the thing that got most of us to put 1000+ hours into this shit.

Their unwillingness to adapt comes from an incomprehensible unwillingness to play this game instead of your generic shooter but then with a bit more projectile drop, which could be easily fixed. Running away isn't fun for anyone, so disable them from doing it. What I am talking about is flawed game mechanics which should be changed. Not everyone's wish can be fulfilled. I would like to have a jetpack with hellfire missiles mounted on it, but that hardly be fun for anyone else. Same with running, apart from that not even being fun for themselves.

Yeah, yeah, I sound like a douche, it's late and I'm tired.

It's just that the shoot and run archery mechanics are not like archery should be and we all know it. The fact that it's pretty easy to fix, yet won't ever happen, made me the bitter my old friend that I am know when it comes to archery.

they do not fight in meele because they are better with bows, and only fool is trying to fight half naked with
no wpf in other weapon against some armored knight with op GS,
they are faster so they runs away, why they are faster because game mechanics force hem to play like that.


I don't really need shield to survive but dam its way easier with shield.
Did you read what I said at all? My point is exactly that they shouldn't be forced to play half naked with a hammer and no wpf. They should be forced to have armor, have a good weapon, have wpf, have powerstrike while keeping their ranged strength the same. The thing is, if you give them more room for melee capabilities now, they will just go, 'lol instead of 80 1h wpf, I'll just go 8 more archery wpf, cause I can run away anyway'.

My entire post is about changing the game mechanics cause they are flawed, and yet you ramble on about the current mechanics.

Archers don't need melee capabilities added, if the devs would scale ath effectivity for people with pd so that 10 ath wouldn't be much better than 5 ath for them they'd be able to make decent melee/my old friendcher hybrids, but, if kiting is taking out actual archery would need a small accuracy buff, a small speed buff, and, after making pierce damage longbow only, a small damage buff.
They won't make hybrids, unless they are forced to. They will just go pure archery, because they have the ability to kite. Take away kiting, and they'll have to hybridize. Which will leave them as very weak archers. Therefore, buff their melee capabilities and force them on them, by removing kiting.

Offline Malaclypse

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2012, 01:13:56 am »
0
I have no problem at all with ranged. If, once I've dodged half a dozen of missiles, they would stand and fight.

They don't, every archer, save maybe 5%, is full archery.

It's really a shame because a basic 18/18 archery/1hand hybrid build is great, probably my favorite level 30 archery build (I'd add more agi into it going past 30 personally) and I wind up going 25-50% of my kills in melee. However that's using a Horn Bow; I suspect we'd see more archers using actual sidearms if the larger bows were not two slots.

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Offline Leshma

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Re: A catchy title to start a debate.
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2012, 01:18:28 am »
+1
Two slot bows require more than 133 wpp in archery to be effective.