Author Topic: Pikemen and the Phalanx  (Read 8251 times)

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Offline Gurnisson

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Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2012, 05:50:37 am »
+2
Did they pike through teammates and walls? No, that's for the true heroes of cRPG
I voted Gurnisson cause of his fucking bendy pike, I swear noone can roflcopter stab like he can.

Offline Lange

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Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2012, 09:47:23 pm »
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Awesome text
And how did shielders fare against a pikewall? Or heavily armored footmen? In my imagination, hurting these with a pike must have been difficult... but i must be wrong here. Could you explain?

Offline Prinz_Karl

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Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2012, 02:04:51 am »
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And how did shielders fare against a pikewall? Or heavily armored footmen? In my imagination, hurting these with a pike must have been difficult... but i must be wrong here. Could you explain?


Pikes vs foot-soldiers with shields is really difficult to imagine because they both couldn't reach eachother or get through their well defending weapons. Pushing with a pike square (the pike was elevated) was one form of fighting the enemy. You could assume that in this situation they degenerated to push the enemy maybe trying to hit him with a secondary weapon. This way the enemy formation could break and when it did they suffered the most casualties there.

For heavy armor and pikes, I don't know if they could penetrate it but often the men fighting in the squares were rather well trained and were quite strong, so a thrust of a pike surely damaged the enemy and if they weren't full armored and got hit on weak parts of their bodies their death was pretty sure I think.

Offline Sarpton

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Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2012, 03:53:08 am »
0
   

HEY EVERYONE SOME STUFF IN HERE I COPY PASTED FROM OTHER SITES! Priz_karl doesn't aprove of that shit!






 The issue with pike blocks versus a sword and shield "formation" is that in a head on fight the pike formation can and will put more soldiers into the same battle space as a sword and shield man.   The sword and shield (here after referred to as S/s) needs a minimum of one meter of clear area on each side to use the typical sword style of the time.   So that would be a battle space of; roughly 2 meters, per soldier.  Now in that same 2 meters a pike formation can put 3 soldiers into the same space.   

    Now the shield obviously gives a defensive edge but the issue is many shields where held by a simple cross bar and boss in the center of the shield.  And as such it was possible with a strong thrust to actually pivot the shield out of the way for one of the other pike men to attack the opening.   Against something like a shield wall it would be an unmitigated slaughter as the S/s man then loses his mobility and the chance of personal kinetic motion.

(click to show/hide)

      When just Spanish S/s-men fought against pikemen historically , they lost horribly. That's what happen to Gonzalo de Córdoba at first (at Seminara), but he learned quickly and got pikes of his own.
Sword&buckler-men were effective against the landsknechts at Ravenna because the Germans had already engaged with Spanish pikemen.   Maybe the sword&buckler-men had some victories against pikes without help, but to my knowledge Machiavelli was the only guy claiming such a thing, and he still suggested a force of both pikemen and sword&buckler-men.

And nobody really listened to Machiavelli anyway. At the end of the 16th century, Sir Roger Williams, a student of Spanish methods, made barely any mention of sword&buckler-men. He certainly didn't suggest using them to kill pikemen. He had far more respect for bills and halberds.

  Obviously the Romans solved this issue with closed rank formations as already discussed.   


  Now the Swiss pikemen alone are interesting as they relied on speed and combined arms as such only the front ranks of the Swiss were heavily armored; the ranks behind them wore little or no armor and would be vulnerable to some degree to arrows raining from above. Plus the front ranks could be vulnerable to heavy crossbows at close range. If only one in one hundred arrows/bolts actually wounded or killed it would have an effect. A man would drop to the ground or at a minimum drop his pike and stop advancing. This would cause some disruption to the ranks behind him and possibly to one file on either side.

The Swiss blocks advanced in echelon. So your cavalry either threatens the leading block on the side without supporting blocks or it threatens the rear block, and by such hopefully removing the Swiss reserve from the battle. Then you hope to defeat the leading two blocks with your infantry, both missile and possibly your own pikes.

And let's remember that in many victories attributed to the Swiss (but by no means all) they were mercenaries fighting in an army that provided the heavy cavalry and missile troops that supported their pikes. So they were often part of a combined arms army themselves. Their advance may have broken the enemy lines and gained the victory, but friendly cavalry countered enemy cavalry and friendly missile troops would have weakened the enemy line of infantry before their pikes crashed into it. Without that support some of their victories would have been defeats.

But again I have to say that in warfare timing is crucial as is how you use your different troop types. Mishandle your heavy cavalry and missile troops and yes, the Swiss will shatter your line. But if you use them correctly and the Swiss misjudge their timing you stand a good chance of beating the Swiss.

All in all, a combined arms army is superior to one that relies upon just one or two troop types. But it is also harder to coordinate and use the various troop types effectively.


**Some is my opinion but much is fact.

edited for many typos.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 05:21:28 am by necron232 »
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Offline Prinz_Karl

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Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2012, 05:21:52 pm »
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Necron stop copying texts you obviously didn't write yourself and if you do just paste the link.

Offline Sarpton

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Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2012, 07:39:48 pm »
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« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 07:49:14 pm by necron232 »
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Offline Prinz_Karl

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Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2012, 08:34:01 pm »
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You know it's a common rule to write down the reference of a copied text you didn't write yourself? or at least qoute it? If it's easier to leave the references out doesn't matter at all. Copying text from other people and acting as if you wrote it yourself is just a bad way of posting.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 08:44:02 pm by Prinz_Karl »

Offline [ptx]

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Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2012, 09:22:23 pm »
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No, that's plagiarism.

Offline Xant

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Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2012, 10:45:53 pm »
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The normal person made his own thoughts on such ludicrous claims already.
Indeed, because the "normal person" has the intelligence of a cucumber. In fact, they don't make up their mind regarding stuff like that. Their mind is made up for them: if it gets taught in school, it's fact. If it didn't, it's not. Going against what you were told in school is at best silly; at worst, lunacy. Same applies for the media, really. If you saw it on the telly, it's gospel. Critical thinking and using logic is something most people can't comprehend.

Case in point, that quote. How could someone have made up their mind about the subject "already" without having looked at the facts on both sides? The claim doesn't sound very convincing at first, no, but if you want to rise above the "normal people" you have to hold back your let's-ridicule-anything-that's-different reflex. Which, by the way, is just weakness.

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Offline [ptx]

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Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2012, 10:52:33 pm »
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Xant, you are not getting Duke today.

Offline Xant

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Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2012, 11:00:07 pm »
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Duke is for bitches.
Meaning lies as much
in the mind of the reader
as in the Haiku.

Offline Sarpton

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Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2012, 11:32:55 pm »
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Hey man you don't believe I wrote a post in a forum on the internet cool man.   That's your right.   Why it matters I don't "get" but do you have a counter point to my posts?  If so let's get this back on track.


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Offline Xant

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Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2012, 11:48:12 pm »
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Hey man you don't believe I wrote a post in a forum on the internet cool man.   That's your right.   Why it matters I don't "get" but do you have a counter point to my posts?  If so let's get this back on track.

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Meaning lies as much
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Offline Lange

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Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2012, 01:29:35 am »
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Indeed, because the "normal person" has the intelligence of a cucumber.
...
Critical thinking and using logic is something most people can't comprehend.
You're quite the example, I might say.

Anyway... You ARE right, any claim has to be looked at, theoretically. And just here and now, I could think of a multitude of ways to prove that the ancient times are indeed not just invented. It is true: I did never, myself, investigate non-western calendars or historic writing. I did never use carbon-dating myself or do archeology. But I know quite a bit about history myself, and all of these dates and events and processes do make sense in themselves. And I simply assume that, if history was actually totally different than we assume, there would be sufficient evidence to be found for all those people that actually do research history. And they would then show us this evidence... unless they are part of this massive, inpenetrable conspiracy (that does what, protect the claim of the romanovs, as wiki says?) Seems unlikely :lol:.
THIS is basically what goes on in the mind of a normal person.

Maybe I should really do all this research myself. But my time is limited, and the amount of bullshit floating around there is not. If I do want to be critical and have my own thoughts, I also have to be critical about how worthy a "controversial issue" actually is of my time and energy.


You know it's a common rule to write down the reference of a copied text you didn't write yourself? or at least qoute it? If it's easier to leave the references out doesn't matter at all. Copying text from other people and acting as if you wrote it yourself is just a bad way of posting.
That list IS impressive. I wonder wether necron is actually a certain german ex-minister of defence...
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 01:45:38 am by Lange »

Offline Lange

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Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2012, 01:35:04 am »
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Damn doublepost. Delete this please.