Author Topic: Were European knights even any good? (provide examples?)  (Read 18520 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ronin

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 859
  • Infamy: 198
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
Re: Were European knights even any good? (provide examples?)
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2013, 12:42:15 am »
0
I'd say every troop and tactic that had it's place for a certain era was useful. If it wouldn't be useful, they would just stop using it. You can see there are not heavily armored knights in napoleonic era. Simply because the wide use of firearms made a heavy cavalry charge near to useless or non-economic. Very similiar that they stopped fighting with wooden sticks and stones when they found the bronze.
Quote from: BlindGuy
Seems the fascists are gaining ground once again in UKR... right vving politics is SO bad for the general populace but STILL in times of trouble the uneducated turn to them for help, simply because they are so amoral they vvill supply those vvilling to fight vvith vveapons rather than knovvledge.

My UU key is broken incase you can't tell :D

Offline Casimir

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1756
  • Infamy: 271
  • cRPG Player Sir White Bishop A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • The Dashing Templar
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Knights Templar
  • Game nicks: Templar_Casimir
  • IRC nick: Casimir
Re: Were European knights even any good? (provide examples?)
« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2013, 01:44:01 am »
0
If you wanna see heavy cavalry dicking on infantry look at the Anglo-Norman conquest of Wales and invasion of Ireland. (particularly the battle of dublin in which 100 knights took on 1000+ Irish/Danish forces and won)
Turtles

Offline Laufknoten

  • Earl
  • ******
  • Renown: 480
  • Infamy: 63
  • cRPG Player Sir Black Pawn
  • BOAT OF ANGER FLOATING ON THE SEA OF TEARS
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Burg Krems
  • Game nicks: Felipe
Re: Were European knights even any good? (provide examples?)
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2013, 06:26:06 pm »
0
You just have to take a look at the prices for armors, warhorses and good weapons at that time. No one would have payed those prices if it wasn't any effective, even if he did swim in money. :D
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Offline Casimir

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1756
  • Infamy: 271
  • cRPG Player Sir White Bishop A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • The Dashing Templar
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Knights Templar
  • Game nicks: Templar_Casimir
  • IRC nick: Casimir
Re: Were European knights even any good? (provide examples?)
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2013, 08:52:50 pm »
+1
It was feigned retreat by cavalry that drew the Anglo-Saxon shield wall from the hill thus allowing for victory at Hastings.  I agree that in and Anglo-Scandinavian context shield wall tactics meant that ground was far more important.

Yeah socially they had similarities but Anglo-Saxon housecarls were not the same as Norman cavalry in terms of equipment.

If Anglo-Saxons had made better use of cavalry, the effect of marching from the north to the south would have been far less.
Turtles

Offline Overdriven

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 828
  • Infamy: 223
  • cRPG Player Sir Black Pawn
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Great Khans
  • Game nicks: GK_Overdriven
Re: Were European knights even any good? (provide examples?)
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2013, 06:07:56 am »
0
Either way they had to fight a battle and then marched 200 miles (almost 300 according to google maps :) ) before Hastings whereas the Norman's just had to casually cross the channel. I think it was always going to be a forgone conclusion to that one.

Offline Penitent

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1389
  • Infamy: 220
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Game nicks: Penitent_Turtler
Re: Were European knights even any good? (provide examples?)
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2013, 10:02:20 pm »
0
If you wanna see heavy cavalry dicking on infantry look at the Anglo-Norman conquest of Wales and invasion of Ireland. (particularly the battle of dublin in which 100 knights took on 1000+ Irish/Danish forces and won)

Hey, do you have any links (like wiki, or another site) that provides the context and procedure of these battles?  I tried to look up battle of Dublin, and wiki only shows the 1922 version.  I'm very interested in reading about these!

Quote
(longbow is an old old old weapon, and not uniquely British by any stretch of the evidence, the only advantage the British ever had was numbers, and even then it's debatable if they worked against plate).

You are right that bows that were long are not unique to England.  However, the "English longbow" was unique for more than just their numbers.  First, the Yew trees that grow in wales produce a superior bow than hickory, ash, or other woods commonly used in bow making throughout continental Europe.  There are other all-wood bow designs that are more efficient at transferring energy to the arrow (like a native american flat-bows) but those highland Yew trees cannot be found in other regions and other people would be hard pressed to find a substitute that could posess the same power -- relying instead on composite materials to acheive the same draw-poundage (however composite bows do not preform well in damp conditions, which is their disadvantage)

Another uniqueness is the archery culture of England.  Banning other sports and requiring all common men to practice archery each week not only ensures their archers are numerous, but skilled as well! :)

As far as I know, the long bow is not effective against plate, but you are right in saying that is debatable.


Quote
You just have to take a look at the prices for armors, warhorses and good weapons at that time. No one would have payed those prices if it wasn't any effective, even if he did swim in money. :D

An argument like this I'm a little wary of.  "They were used, therefore they were effective."  That makes sense on some levels...for example why spears were used, or shields.  But knights were important peoples: is it possible they only armored up and rode on large steeds NOT because it was more effective in battle but only because it kept them safer?  Perhaps it wasn't very battlefield-effective (and they would have been more effective on foot with the other soldiers) but they were more interested in preserving their own lives, or keeping up the appearance of their importance (mounted on the battlefield)?  It's a possibility anyways.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 10:29:40 pm by Garison »

Offline Casimir

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1756
  • Infamy: 271
  • cRPG Player Sir White Bishop A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • The Dashing Templar
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Knights Templar
  • Game nicks: Templar_Casimir
  • IRC nick: Casimir
Re: Were European knights even any good? (provide examples?)
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2013, 10:19:29 pm »
0
No sorry, got it from Irish Battles: A Military History of Ireland (G.A. Hayes-McCoy, 1969), Ireland and wales provide a great examples of cavalry dominance in the central middle ages

This is some background info: http://weaponsandwarfare.com/?p=3314
Turtles

Offline Fringe

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Renown: 119
  • Infamy: 30
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Blackfist T.T
  • Game nicks: Fringe, Bane, Bane_of_Fringe
Re: Were European knights even any good? (provide examples?)
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2013, 10:19:48 pm »
0
As far as I know, the long bow is not effective against plate, but you are right in saying that is debatable.

It was damn effective alright, don't care if you got some metal covering your chest...a 100-150 pound longbow is going to knock the breath out of you, not mentioning that it might be directed into the cracks of the plate, if it didn't find that spot on its own. If it did make solid contact though, and didn't ricochet, then that's one hell of a hit to be taking. Basically plate just increases your survivability chances. If you did just walk off a hit, it was either a defective shot or there was a lot of distance, and personally I don't think I could even do that.

As for the whole iffy conversation about the credibility of the Medieval knight, they were damn effective. A cruel, strong man on a large horse, decked out in a suit of mail (or in the later ages maybe some plate,) charging at you with lances and other atrocious weapons should definitely be given a commendable amount of respect.

(click to show/hide)
Nemo vir est qui mundum non reddat meliorem.

Offline Penitent

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1389
  • Infamy: 220
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Game nicks: Penitent_Turtler
Re: Were European knights even any good? (provide examples?)
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2013, 10:38:27 pm »
0
It was damn effective alright, don't care if you got some metal covering your chest...a 100-150 pound longbow is going to knock the breath out of you, not mentioning that it might be directed into the cracks of the plate, if it didn't find that spot on its own. If it did make solid contact though, and didn't ricochet, then that's one hell of a hit to be taking. Basically plate just increases your survivability chances. If you did just walk off a hit, it was either a defective shot or there was a lot of distance, and personally I don't think I could even do that.

As for the whole iffy conversation about the credibility of the Medieval knight, they were damn effective. A cruel, strong man on a large horse, decked out in a suit of mail (or in the later ages maybe some plate,) charging at you with lances and other atrocious weapons should definitely be given a commendable amount of respect.

(click to show/hide)

Well, this is probably a topic for a different thread.  I think we should make a new thread "were long bows effective against plate?"  Some things to note is that longbows were used at a distance (100 meters or more) and used in "volleys" -- far, wide-arching shots.  By the time the enemy was close enough to aim individual shots at creases in the armor, the archers are already drawing their swords or withdrawing.  So, most arrows would have struck a knight from hundreds of feet in the air down on to his head and shoulders.  Steel plate armor is hella-tough, and it would be hard to pierce it with a bow at far range.  The horses, however, were not usually as heavily armored and suffered greatly.  Same with non-plated men-at-arms.  If arrows did make it into the joints of plate armor, it was more incidental than anything else. 

So its yet to be seen if long bows were "effective" against plate, and what "effective" even means!
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 10:45:27 pm by Garison »

Offline Fringe

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Renown: 119
  • Infamy: 30
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Blackfist T.T
  • Game nicks: Fringe, Bane, Bane_of_Fringe
Re: Were European knights even any good? (provide examples?)
« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2013, 04:09:17 am »
0
Well, this is probably a topic for a different thread.  I think we should make a new thread "were long bows effective against plate?"  Some things to note is that longbows were used at a distance (100 meters or more) and used in "volleys" -- far, wide-arching shots.  By the time the enemy was close enough to aim individual shots at creases in the armor, the archers are already drawing their swords or withdrawing.  So, most arrows would have struck a knight from hundreds of feet in the air down on to his head and shoulders.  Steel plate armor is hella-tough, and it would be hard to pierce it with a bow at far range.  The horses, however, were not usually as heavily armored and suffered greatly.  Same with non-plated men-at-arms.  If arrows did make it into the joints of plate armor, it was more incidental than anything else. 

So its yet to be seen if long bows were "effective" against plate, and what "effective" even means!

You misunderstood me. I'm not saying that they would aim for the crease, but referring that shit happens and that a group of archers who shot a volley at hundreds of grouped knights assures that a few were bound to get in sore places. Also, when the arrow hits a curved surface, which it was meant to, it ricochets off and sometimes finds places like under the arms, or beneath a breastplate, which had no protection except for cloth and maybe mail. Also, if the arrow were to hit the facial area the victim was in a hell of a mess.

I'm not saying the longbow was ideal for plate, I'm just saying it was effective against most infantry. I'd probably call it quits if I got hit with an arrow that traveled about 100-200m from a 100-150 pound bow hitting me square in the chest.

Also you're right saying this is the wrong thread for this kinda topic, but I really don't have a quarrel or the time to post a good thread about archery and it's art.

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 04:13:01 am by Fringe »
Nemo vir est qui mundum non reddat meliorem.

Offline Casimir

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1756
  • Infamy: 271
  • cRPG Player Sir White Bishop A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • The Dashing Templar
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Knights Templar
  • Game nicks: Templar_Casimir
  • IRC nick: Casimir
Re: Were European knights even any good? (provide examples?)
« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2013, 04:16:56 am »
+2
The best thing is open field battles were so rare that most of these debates do not contribute to a greater understanding of the medieval world. Compare the amount of time that has been spent researching pitched battles and siege warfare in the middle ages and realise how pointless these popular history arguments are.
Turtles

Offline Mala

  • Earl
  • ******
  • Renown: 412
  • Infamy: 61
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
Re: Were European knights even any good? (provide examples?)
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2013, 12:41:08 pm »
0
Once i had this in history class.
Battle of Lechfeld
Heavy armoured riders against an hungarian nomadic army.

Offline Christo

  • Dramaturge
  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1844
  • Infamy: 371
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: No faction, methinks.
  • Game nicks: Sir_Christo, Christo, Cristo.
  • IRC nick: Christo
Re: Were European knights even any good? (provide examples?)
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2013, 06:18:39 pm »
0
Oh, the Battle of Augsburg.

Well Hungarians made a lot of raids for I don't know, decades,
it was only about time the neighbors figured out what to do against feigned retreat tactics of them.

Was one of the turning points that made Hungary finally settle down and soon adopt christianity, become a more stable kingdom.

But those guys weren't knights.  :P
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

                                                                                            Thanks to cmpxchg8b for the picture!

Offline Mala

  • Earl
  • ******
  • Renown: 412
  • Infamy: 61
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
Re: Were European knights even any good? (provide examples?)
« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2013, 01:25:35 am »
0
But a pre-stage of it.

Offline Christo

  • Dramaturge
  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1844
  • Infamy: 371
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: No faction, methinks.
  • Game nicks: Sir_Christo, Christo, Cristo.
  • IRC nick: Christo
Re: Were European knights even any good? (provide examples?)
« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2013, 01:40:49 am »
0
Fair enough.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

                                                                                            Thanks to cmpxchg8b for the picture!