Author Topic: [Suggesion] Limited Alliances  (Read 8196 times)

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Offline Casimir

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Re: [Suggesion] Limited Alliances
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2011, 04:59:05 pm »
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Excuse me but god is willing us to not fight atm and to sort out whos in charge please would you refrain from attacking us till we are ready to go on a crusade.

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Offline Beauchamp

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Re: [Suggesion] Limited Alliances
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2011, 07:41:31 pm »
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i don't think its "technically" possible.

if players will find bigger fun fighting with big fishes than against them, if most of the people will prefer bipolar world over multipolar, this game will always have some UIF, EIF, UEF, EEF, UOF or whatever. Even if UIF won't reform, sooner or later there will be someone else with bunch of bootlickers behind him doing the same thing (conquering most of the map).

has anybody seen any game with alliances that would finish differently than with 1vs1 huge alliance fight? me not...
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Offline Olwen

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Re: [Suggesion] Limited Alliances
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2011, 09:42:05 pm »
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yep, though territory was a bit bigger and there was many big factions, darkfall for example

Offline ManOfWar

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Re: [Suggesion] Limited Alliances
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2011, 12:20:59 am »
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The player community needs to adapt to huge powerful coalitions,

on another note, who here would support a seperation of NA and EU strategus?
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Offline VVarlord

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Re: [Suggesion] Limited Alliances
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2011, 12:28:07 am »
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The player community needs to adapt to huge powerful coalitions,

on another note, who here would support a seperation of NA and EU strategus?

Im sure it would solve the lag issue when fighting each other but is there enough NA clans? Sorry if its an obvious yes or no i just dont generally know.

Offline Kalam

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Re: [Suggesion] Limited Alliances
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2011, 12:34:12 am »
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Im sure it would solve the lag issue when fighting each other but is there enough NA clans? Sorry if its an obvious yes or no i just dont generally know.

There are, however, I kind of like having to deal with ridiculous ping. It makes people think twice about attacking each other, and lends a natural home-field advantage, which I think in some ways translates to trying to conquer something like Afghanistan or Northern Britain back in the day.

What I'd like to see are freakin' continents.

Anyway, as everyone's mentioned, alliances will always prevail. Also, Braeden is right: RISK was always about who was best at getting away with backstabbing everyone else.

Offline BD_Guard_Bane

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Re: [Suggesion] Limited Alliances
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2011, 06:06:34 am »
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i don't think its "technically" possible.

if players will find bigger fun fighting with big fishes than against them, if most of the people will prefer bipolar world over multipolar, this game will always have some UIF, EIF, UEF, EEF, UOF or whatever. Even if UIF won't reform, sooner or later there will be someone else with bunch of bootlickers behind him doing the same thing (conquering most of the map).

has anybody seen any game with alliances that would finish differently than with 1vs1 huge alliance fight? me not...

Sure people naturally want to join in on the big groups - this is nearly always the case. But if you make the game mechanics (the strategic ones, not the fighting ones) so that it isn't always best to do that, the game will be more fun.

If the game is simple, alliances will always be better. But if you add in other factors which make it more realistic (in this case realism adds to gameplay), alliances aren't always the best idea.

I can think of three big ways to do that, but I'm not sure how easy they would be to add, or how they could be added:

1) Economics and topography: if you have resources randomly distributed, it gives something else for people to fight for. And it gives more reasons for people to fight, rather than make huge alliances. Factions will want to control resources either through alliances and trade, or capturing the resource. The more factions there are, the more difficult it will be to maintain resource-monopoly alliances (especially if the resources have a time based limit - you need workers to produce them over time or whatever). Adding topography (another mechanical limit on resource distribution and logistics) will further complicate things, as well as army upkeep and supply lines.

2) More influence for non-faction players, or smaller factions: this can be achieved in many ways - economics is one of them. If the players can represent skilled craftsmen or women and work in your fief, it gives them more power individually. Also the ability to be a bandit - raiding caravans. The more ways you can find to give non-faction players more power to counter balance the obvious benefits of joining a faction, the more stuff factions will have to think about.

3) Social factors: this I think would be very difficult and maybe controversial to add. But if you force players into a government role only (not representing the population of their fiefs), you can make politics and diplomacy much more difficult - not so obviously beneficial to just form a huge alliance. For example, you could add mechanics like civil unrest, resistance to occupation, and xenophobia, or even something like religion or ideological beliefs. So making alliances with a faction who your people hate would cause your faction to be unpopular with it's people, and you get riots.

So, going to war or making an alliance involves thinking about more than just 'if I get this fief I get more money and more soldiers', or 'if I ally with all these other players I'm completely safe'.

Obviously there's way too much stuff there to add, and probably a lot of it wouldn't work or would be to complicated. But the more stuff players have to consider, and the more factions there are playing (as well as more power and use for players who aren't in a faction, and more impact - for example through raiding or banditry), the less obvious it is that huge alliance blocks = good.

If someone asks you for an alliance and you have to think about the cost of the alliance before you say yes, it'll stop the bi-polar stuff. Imagine if you have to pay upkeep for armies and supply them with stuff, or to help defend their territories you have to move your armies through a mountain range, or they just don't have any resources that you want, or there is proper fow and lots of non-faction players are waiting to raid any caravans you might send. Or even that the people who live in your fiefs hate the people who live in their fiefs, and if you ally with them you get civil unrest.

Point is, the more realistic (within reason) you make the strategic aspects, the more realistic alliances and diplomacy will become. And adding even a basic economy will always increase the amount of wars and decrease alliances - as soon as alliances become economic as well as just simply military, they become much more difficult to make. 

And anyone who played Risk with alliances between players allowed is insane :)
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Offline Olwen

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Re: [Suggesion] Limited Alliances
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2011, 12:18:40 pm »
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i see that you're volounteer to code it bane, go for it,


btw i remember you that we don't even have a playable simple version of the game atm :xxxxx

Offline Beauchamp

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Re: [Suggesion] Limited Alliances
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2011, 03:10:17 pm »
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1 easy thing could be implemented - giving anything to sbdy else who is under attack would be possible only from member of the same clan (not from allies).

any transfers between members of different factions (troops, gold, equipment) would last some time (like 12 hours for example). you'd start the transfer (you'd loose what you transfer immediately) and the one who gets the goods or whatever will have it not immediately, but with some delay (he still could move during that time).

this is of course primarily based against UIF as they are the only big coalition now consisting of various members where 1 big clan does the job for others (not always, but often). but in the future it would prevent any other big alliances to be over too efective.

its just an idea...
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Offline krampe

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Re: [Suggesion] Limited Alliances
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2011, 04:02:30 pm »
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combined with a 12h delay to join another faction if you left yours.
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Offline Erasmas

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Re: [Suggesion] Limited Alliances
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2011, 06:29:42 pm »
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As this a purely academic discussion, please forget for a while that I act as a diplomat of one of UIF factions.

As long as I totally support what Bane said, I do not agree with Beau.

From purely military point of view, you have an alliance to attack someone, or to defend against enemy. If  giving anything to sbdy else who is under attack would be possible only from member of the same clan (not from allies), that would make defensive pacts totally impossible/useless. Basing on the defensive treaty you can reasonably expect that your ally will support you if you are attacked. If you are not able to accept such help - it would mean that you can co-operate with other faction only in aggressive actions.

If you add to that picture the limitation that any transfers between members of different factions (troops, gold, equipment) would last some time (like 12 hours for example - which is (was) longer than time allowed for reinforcement, that would make any defensive support form other clan totally impossible.

We strive here to make Strat more playable for smaller factions. I am afraid that the result would be opposite. Smaller faction rely often  on the support/protection of larger ones. Sometimes they hold fiefs only upon acceptance of the larger factions; and it does not have to be large coallition (e.g vassalage). If that solution is implemented it would be impossible (or close to impossible) for them to defend their land. Any large faction, or coalition (i.e. vehicle having ability to gather large force) would be able to conquer the land of smaller factions without hassle, as the aid reinforcements are impossible. Large clan on the other hand would be able to transfer troops/equip from its other locations and defend their realms without such problems. It promotes aggressive actions over defensive.

So, this solution would be primarily aimed not in large coalitions (although yes, that would make their life more complicated as closer co-operation would be required) but rather small factions holding little land. Who would benefit? Large factions, and large aggressive alliances.  In a long term we would not have small factions on the map, only medium - large ones that are able to defend their land on their own.

On more positive note:

I think that there should be no direct, built-in-game limitations relating to the diplomatic relations. Just as in RL. The performance of duties arising from such relations, however, may be limited by the game mechanics. Geography will limit ability to transfer large amounts of troops on the map in a short time. That makes some alliances difficult to perform. For example, in current state of affairs hypothetical  alliance between GO and Fallen would be difficult to realize in case one of the factions being attacked; the other would not have time to transfer sufficient amount of troops to aid, but not because of artificial transfer limitation but due to moving speed on the map. Art of game balancing again...  Economical constraints may work even better. Here I agree with Bane. Moreover, I believe that just these two factors - economy and topography - could be sufficient to balance the game and make Strategus more interesting (dammit, chadz, where is it?)... 
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 07:48:11 pm by Erasmas »
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Offline Thomek

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Re: [Suggesion] Limited Alliances
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2011, 08:58:59 pm »
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Personally I'm fond of the idea of having many many small clans, and benefits given to small empires.

I.ex your designated hometown/village/castle has a 2-3x number of defenders added if attacked. (They can not be moved out)

Also economics of small empires, by punishing large empires with corruption is interesting. Let's say there are logistical benefits in terms of workload on the organizer/leader of a large empire, but inefficient production. Let's say trade and movement of troops is faster, but gold and goods production suffer.

An alliance of many small empires would be far more productive, but it would be a huge beaurocratic overhead in terms of workload and interaction between players. Getting something done when you have to contact people that may not be online at any given moment is a pain..

I think this is very important, as a strategus that shifts into a game only for big players i.ex leaders of alliances, becomes boring for a vast amount of other players, that have nothing to do, except stay in a village and fight in the battles.
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Offline Erasmas

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Re: [Suggesion] Limited Alliances
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2011, 10:03:29 pm »
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Now, think about this (just a free idea) :D:

Lets assume we have a battle. How strat would look like, if only players that are located on the map within certain radius from the battle are able to participate in the battle? If you want to conquer something, you need to send "dots" across the map... That would change the play-style completely.
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Offline ManOfWar

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Re: [Suggesion] Limited Alliances
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2011, 12:12:24 am »
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Now, think about this (just a free idea) :D:

Lets assume we have a battle. How strat would look like, if only players that are located on the map within certain radius from the battle are able to participate in the battle? If you want to conquer something, you need to send "dots" across the map... That would change the play-style completely.

That would make reinforcing that one area easy,
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Offline Beauchamp

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Re: [Suggesion] Limited Alliances
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2011, 12:54:30 am »
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my idea was meant against situation where big clan does everything for his vassal without his vassal even moving a finger. big alliances wouldn't be totally useless, there are still trade rights and attacking.... big alliances would only be more vulnerable to attack as defence with my suggestion would be way more difficult to coordinate (and thats the main point, nothing else).

big clans can suffer from corruption - the original idea was that everybody owning a fief was supposed to make a capital and the farther from capital the less efective the production would be. i like that, i agree with that. reminds me of civilization series that had many really awesome ideas.

btw i also thing that strategus map should be bigger for new strategus (but its a bit OT)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 12:56:54 am by Beauchamp »
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