the horse crossbowman problem/motf

[Leman_Russ]

Don't jump to conclusions Slamz.  The vast majority of horse crossbows you see are STF or fuckaround alts of known, respectable players whom you would probably not expect (which is why so many of them are bad).  They simply don't play them unless the Semenstorm group is all on and playing HX.  Once the break is over, we will all be HX again and you'll see the swarm return.  I fully expect you to be at the forefront of the whining, along with parakeet and crazyi.   Haha   

[Overdriven]

Ooo yes, so because there's one grossly underpowered subclass that nobody plays (and never, in the history of cRPG, has been on top of the charts) that totally invalidates the whole thread.

Maybe if you actually played the game, you'd see how real horse archers fare.

1) They get killed through various means while trying to chase down the HX
2) If there are no HX they are a bloody useless and expensive class to play

The reason HX became popular and HA didn't is because HX is effective against a variety of targets while HA is useless against just about everything.  They can't even delay rounds because they can't consistently get kills fast enough to block MOTF.

O now this is a retarded post 

While HA can be UP, it is no where near this bad. You've evidently only seen some really awful HA. Just yesterday on EU4 me and another foot archer killed off the last 4 enemy in under a minute. We each got 2 and they were in upper tier medium armour. It was pretty easy. The only time HA will EVER struggle against HX is if they are riding a heavy horse, or your own horse has taken damage. Otherwise there's no excuse for not being able to down an HX other than very poor shooting.

I'd argue that HA is more skill based and takes longer to learn than HX. HX is very much a stop and shoot class. That and the higher accuracy makes for easier shots. HA have to learn how to use the lower accuracy a lot more. That's not to say HX isn't skilled, but I think HA is more so. As a result more people will pick HX simply because it requires less effort.

[Slamz]

HX is very much a stop and shoot class.

With all due respect, you play on EU and thus have no idea what we are talking about in this thread.

None of the HX archers we are discussing are the "stop and shoot" type.  It's not really necessary -- especially against unaware infantry, in which case HX works almost exactly like lancer cavalry: you ride up on some guy fighting or not paying attention and instead of lancing him, you shoot him point blank right before your horse runs him over.  HX just has the additional advantage that if it's a wary pikeman then you can circle around him and kill him from 20 feet away instead.

Especially true on NA1 where the majority of the maps have been 0-cover open field maps.


The main weakness of the HA is the number of points they have to spend.

HX:
10 riding
5 horse archery
10 WM
2 skill points left over (7/30)
190 xbow wpf(!!!)

As an HA, you can't do anything like that.  You need strength and points for power draw which is going to impair your riding, relative to an HX.  If Lemann is right and the HX all come back, it would certainly be interesting to see you try some crossover action to battle them.  Usually they use their superior riding skill to dodge the HA and retreat to the safety of friendly lines, so that you get killed by some other means in the meantime.  If it comes to the end of the round and you're still alive, the HX will prioritize killing you.

Really they just need to kill your horse.  With 10 riding skill on an Arabian, 2 HX can pretty well keep you from standing back up.


ANYway, I'm just speaking for the masses.  You can see all the complaints and requests to "get off your horse" in the short video I posted.

Those people may not be stampeding the forums with demands (yet), but the sentiment is out there.  Feel free to discount everything I'm saying.  I'm just repeating to you the things being said over and over by dozens of people on NA1.

[BADPLAYERold]

As a HA you shoot their horse a few times and it dies (cuz they all use arabians) while they take ages to reload. I went HA for a short amount of time only yesterday and even with 111wpf in archery cause I fucked up my build I didn't have trouble with HX except 1 who had much better aim than me. I see no problems with someone better than me killing me.

[Leman_Russ]

Regardless of whether or not the sentiment of players is that HX is lame, OP, gay, whatever, there won't be any changes to them.  Why?  Because the people whining about them are wrong.  The admins don't bend to the wishes of the whiners and kick/ban HX's.  Why?  Because the admins know that they're wrong. 

Rohypnol and I are pretty much the only people who do well as HX, granted Rohypnol is far better than I am.  Try spectating us for an entire map.  Watch how we play.  We are never out of harms way (unless we are having high speed fights with lancers).  I am very surprised that more people don't shoot down our horses earlier in the round.  As someone said before though and I can attest to, archers generally aren't shooting at us unless we are harassing them directly.  They are trying to kill infantry and get a better KDR.  Then by the end of the round, most of the ranged is dead and the HX just has melee to deal with.  This is not the fault of the HX.

Onto the 10 riding 5 HA and 10 wm build.  I agree that it does sound rather crazy to be able to pull it off.  You need to understand though.  7 strength leaves us with no opportunity to pick up a melee weapon and defend ourselves if dehorsed.  If we lose our horse, we die.  You claim that it is far too easy to dodge arrows and bolts, making it impossible to lose the horse.  Try fighting Karma, Havoc, Damatacus, or some of the other excellent ranged players of this game.  They frequently take out my horse (or me) from half the map away. 

There are plenty... plenty of counters to the class.  The times people whine are simply when no ranged are left alive to combat the HX at the end of a round.

[Slamz]

Regardless of whether or not the sentiment of players is that HX is lame, OP, gay, whatever, there won't be any changes to them.  Why?  Because the people whining about them are wrong.  The admins don't bend to the wishes of the whiners and kick/ban HX's.  Why?  Because the admins know that they're wrong. 

I said the same thing about roof archers, which are only half as lame as HX, and which are completely incapable of creating the MOTF problem that HX creates.

Yet they made the change to remove ladders, just because a few whiners couldn't be bothered to hide behind a tree.

Which, incidentally, doesn't work against HX.



So either admins do something about HX or they re-implement ladders or they are fickle hypocrites who sided for one thing and against another with contradictory reasoning.  There were more and better counters to roof archers than there are to HX.

[Leman_Russ]

I said the same thing about roof archers, which are only half as lame as HX, and which are completely incapable of creating the MOTF problem that HX creates.

Yet they made the change to remove ladders, just because a few whiners couldn't be bothered to hide behind a tree.

Which, incidentally, doesn't work against HX.



So either admins do something about HX or they re-implement ladders or they are fickle hypocrites who sided for one thing and against another with contradictory reasoning.  There were more and better counters to roof archers than there are to HX.

Well then you'll have to call them fickle hypocrites.  All you seem to be able to do is plug your ears and yell loudly in order to try and make a point when there isnt one.  Archers, crossbowmen, horse archers, throwers are all solid counters to horse crossbows.  You've been told this by people repeatedly through this retarded thread lol.  You can see this in game.  Occassionally all the ranged will be dead at the end of the round and it is one of the 2 people who play HX alive vs some infantry.  Obviously the infantry cannot do much about it (nor should they be able to).  More often than not this isn't the case, and you know it. 

You're simply angry at having to spectate for 2 minutes after you die, and I understand that.  This was initially your issue when you posted this thread.  Should stick to your main gripe and leave retarded balancing suggestions out of it.  IMO

[Crazyi]

High speed fights with lancers on an arabian with 10 riding skill you say? Plenty of counters but can only name 3 "excellent ranged players" that can MAYBE shoot you down. Plenty.

[Slamz]

Well then you'll have to call them fickle hypocrites.  All you seem to be able to do is plug your ears and yell loudly in order to try and make a point when there isnt one.  Archers, crossbowmen, horse archers, throwers are all solid counters to horse crossbows.

XBows are one of the worst possible counter to HX.  Good luck reloading when the HX is just going to knock you down, shoot you, or both.  You'd be better off with a pike.

Throwers are not a counter.  XBow range is a lot further and he has a lot more ammo and a lot better accuracy and a lot better ability to dodge.  HX will just stand off at range and shoot you.


So basically you just keep ignoring everything and spouting the same complete nonsense against all evidence to the contrary because you personally like HX.  You admit that the policy is not consistent between HX and roof archers but you support HX for personal reasons.

It's an emotional issue for you.  I understand.



For my part, all I'm asking for is consistency.  Either roof archers were a problem due to game delaying or they weren't.  Either HX are the same problem for the same reason or you have an emotional bias.

[Overdriven]

XBows are one of the worst possible counter to HX.  Good luck reloading when the HX is just going to knock you down, shoot you, or both.  You'd be better off with a pike.

Xbows are ranged right? They can shoot from a distance you know. They can stick with teammates and then shoot at the HX who is riding around (doesn't even have to be THAT far away).

Same goes for all other ranged. It's really not that bloody hard. It's the same reason why so many lancers have an easy time of it, foot ranged just seem to be blind to horses. They just won't shoot them unless directly threatened. It's kinda bizarre but produced by the focus on trying to get a good KDR I guess and so focusing on kills as opposed to teamplay.

Regardless, blame foot ranged for any annoying HX. If foot ranged were actually smart, you wouldn't be here complaining.

[ROHYPNOL]

you know slamz and crazyi if you just got better at this game and stopped taking it so serious.. none of this would be an issue.. blame yourselfs for sucking

[Leman_Russ]

Im in agreement with Rohypnol.  The good players that play ranged don't have a huge issue taking our horses down.  Maybe you really do just need to get better   

[San]

To be fair, they're playing classes that can't deal with HX, so getting better won't really do too much other than killing other infantry or something.


HX is a pretty effective build, but not op or anything like that. Mediocre HX like I was when I tried it for the first time (first time playing ranged and cav in crpg) need to get a little closer in order to land accurate shots. I did find throwers to be the ones who dehorsed or killed me more than I would have liked, due to the fact they have 2-3 times to try to hit me while I flee.

With the 7-30 build, HAs have the possibility of oneshotting you and you have to dodge a few arrows before you can reload again.

I think the knockdown turnaround shot is pretty dumb, though. HA have to time it, while HX can just wait until he can get an easy knockdown. Infantry are really easy to deal with, admittedly. They have to hope that I miss even when I get close, since I only need to release the trigger while they have a full windup animation.

 Other than that, I can't really think of much. When HX were becoming too much on the server, the infantry picked up pocket crossbows and that helped them immensely.

[Rumblood]

To be fair, they're playing classes that can't deal with HX, so getting better won't really do too much other than killing other infantry or something.

Like the infantry that is killing their ranged while they chase the HX they can never catch or attack in a big ball for the entire round? Nah, wouldn't help at all