Rebalancing Daggers and Knives

[Heroin]

Just keep in mind that athletics doesn't make you run faster, only accelerate to top speed faster. A guy in plate with 2 athletics can run as fast as a naked guy with 10 athletics in a straight line, so keep that in mind if you make a character like that.

This isn't true. I've tested this.

Also, buffing the stats to what you said in your most recent stats post is simply too much. If they raised the long dagger thrust to only 28, they wouldn't have to add penalty with shield. It would be in line with what the long dagger stats were pre-patch, which wasn't OP anyhow. Just drop the idea of penalty with shield completely, and your idea is much more sound.

A 30 pierce weapon becomes a 20 pierce weapon when used with a steel buckler? No. Fucking. Thanks.

[Cyclopsided]

This isn't true. I've tested this.

Also, buffing the stats to what you said in your most recent stats post is simply too much. If they raised the long dagger thrust to only 28, they wouldn't have to add penalty with shield. It would be in line with what the long dagger stats were pre-patch, which wasn't OP anyhow. Just drop the idea of penalty with shield completely, and your idea is much more sound.

A 30 pierce weapon becomes a 20 pierce weapon when used with a steel buckler? No. Fucking. Thanks.

True that with a really small buff there needs to be no penalty with shield. And really, I don't think 32 pierce is too much for a dagger that can't block, or even 33 cut on a slash with a knife that can't block either. You are really hung up on the idea that I want to nerf using it with a shield, when I want to keep it the same. If there was a way to Buff damage by 15 - 20% and have a shield penalty of 15 - 20% that would be ideal. However, there is not until cmp gets his super magic code working.

And the athletics thing is true, as I have tested it myself with others. The lower athletics takes a longer time to reach the top speed but it will have the same exact top speed as everyone else. You effectively run faster by reaching that top speed first, but you are not any faster at top speed. If you run in circles and zig zags the difference is real though since you will maintain top and they won't.

[ThePoopy]

would be cool if all 1h weps had sec mode that make u hold the wep opposite way and get 0 range (fist range) but with the dmg type and amount of the wepons thrust attack

maybe dont have to do with thread but I came to think of it when thinking about dagger and assassinating

[haxKingdom]

forget all this damage crap. just make it unsheathe in a millisecond and 1 hit ko facestab.

[Heroin]

And the athletics thing is true, as I have tested it myself with others. The lower athletics takes a longer time to reach the top speed but it will have the same exact top speed as everyone else. You effectively run faster by reaching that top speed first, but you are not any faster at top speed. If you run in circles and zig zags the difference is real though since you will maintain top and they won't.

The higher athletics person will run faster at top speed. Along a stretch, the higher athletics person will slowly but surely make headway, so long as they are unencumbered.

[Cyclopsided]

The higher athletics person will run faster at top speed. Along a stretch, the higher athletics person will slowly but surely make headway, so long as they are unencumbered.

Any discussion on athletics is for the athletics thread that got created as a side-effect of this thread.
Link is here: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2842.0.html

[MountedRhader]

You know the dagger already has a penalty with shield like every other weapon in this game? Swing your dagger without a shield and swing it with the shield on some targets in the duel arena notice the differences?

Goddamn right there is a penalty with a shield. My dagger is surely for fun and is in no way OP. I say nerf that fking bar mace and throwing lances if anything. Dagger is under powered in my opinion cuz I heir-loomed mine and I still have something like 300 kills 800 deaths.   

[Cyclopsided]

Goddamn right there is a penalty with a shield. My dagger is surely for fun and is in no way OP. I say nerf that fking bar mace and throwing lances if anything. Dagger is under powered in my opinion cuz I heir-loomed mine and I still have something like 300 kills 800 deaths.   

Those are being nerfed. Well, no official statement on throwing lances but all throwing is being changed.
And yes the dagger is underpowered, hence this thread. Also, daggers aren't a good idea with shield as they have such low reach.

[Heroin]

You are really hung up on the idea that I want to nerf using it with a shield, when I want to keep it the same. If there was a way to Buff damage by 15 - 20% and have a shield penalty of 15 - 20% that would be ideal. However, there is not until cmp gets his super magic code working.

I'm hung up on the idea because your idea will directly nerf one of my characters by 10-15 damage per thrust/swing. I have had this character for 6 months, and have put lots of time into heirlooming items for his build. If "penalty with shield" is added to all daggers, some of my heirloomed items become useless to me.

[Greziz]

Heroin they already are nerfed with a shield seriously spend some time swing your dagger with shield and without and realize already weilding a dagger with a shield makes it a fucken floppy tuna fish.

[Heroin]

Heroin they already are nerfed with a shield seriously spend some time swing your dagger with shield and without and realize already weilding a dagger with a shield makes it a fucken floppy tuna fish.

I HAVE spent TONS of time swinging my masterwork long dagger, both with and without my buckler. I pretty much always put the buckler away when I'm fighting someone with an axe. And yes, I know that the shield speed effects how much weapon speed I can actually get out of my dagger, but only when switching from block to attack. If you attack-attack, you don't lose any weapon speed at all. Also, the "penalty with shield" flag is going to take 30% damage away from the dagger, which it does NOT currently do. Using a shield doesn't currently lower your damage with a dagger at all, and a 30% damage loss is a SHITLOAD.

[Greziz]

I keep a positive kill death ratio without a shield and I must certainly dont keep it with a shield when I tried it cause I moved slower didnt get a nicer speed bonus and I most certainly felt like I swung slower and hit lighter. I feel it is just much more important to work on your spam chambers and footwork lose the shield and work on you free hand style.

[Heroin]

I keep a positive kill death ratio without a shield and I must certainly dont keep it with a shield when I tried it cause I moved slower didnt get a nicer speed bonus and I most certainly felt like I swung slower and hit lighter. I feel it is just much more important to work on your spam chambers and footwork lose the shield and work on you free hand style.

That is your opinion. You hit just as hard with the shield, however. And if you're using a sufficiently fast and lightweight shield(buckler), then any slowdown you receive is minimal, not like the 30% being suggested.

[MountedRhader]

You hit just as hard with the shield

One word: Nope. 

[Bifi]

Just add double damage for backstabbing with daggers and knifes