New ranged change

[CaptainQuantum]

Archers should not get scores as high as 2h/pole/cav, they are a support class, and hence are harder to top the boards with. It is the same with a shielder, they have a harder time scoring top on the boards because they are also support as well as a killing class.

Also you need to consider the 2h kill rates of an average 2h, which is very low since they will be picked off due to bad awareness. There are no average two handers topping the boards consistently, same as any other class other than cavalry but cavalry has other reasons to be easier to get kills.

Yes? They register the kill ratio of different people with different styles.
And most archers are usualy listed below the average melee guy, but I shouldn't have to tell you that if you play the game.


 No! I just want as much a chance of getting kills as anyone else.

Learn the role of your class, support + killing, compared to cav/2h/polearm just killing. If you are getting as many kills as a 2h of the same skill as you then your class is not balanced, since you are getting as many kills and assisting others. The scoreboard is not entirely representative of how much you helped your team, ranged can pick off very important members of the enemy team whereas cavalry only kills indiscriminately.

As I said in the other thread from my point of view (2h, 8 athletics) the change was just a huge ranged nerf hidden behind an attempt to "add more skill" (which doesn't effect my point of view). Before patch headshot was deadly in 95%, now it is deadly in 300% while headshots happen a bit more but not much due to high ath (difference=0). Every other hits though are drastically weaker.

If a nerf was necessary in my eyes a tiny overall damage reduction would be better, especially because this would effect HA's and throwers not that much. HA's are really only to be pittied now, even before patch they did little harm. The fun/challenge in killing one has been drastically reduced.

I don't think the devs wanted to disguise anything, in my eyes this has made ranged more skilful. It did break crossbows admittedly and I do hope they will re-balance them but overall the change was a good idea. Maybe archery will need a buff to accuracy but I hope the change itself stays. Yes HA is broken and I really do wish they would change that but the HA is a class which is hard to balance since it relies heavily on attrition of arrows.

[Kafein]

This is just hilarious. There's few melee players whining about archery and defending nerf with all possible ways and explanations.

So... archers need to adapt to it? Can I ask...

What you did before patch?

No, you didn't adapt. Still you didn't learn to dodge, you didn't buy shield, you didn't move behind shielder. You were whining here at forums about how archery is all mighty and powerful. And it was all good before nerf for those who knew how to deal with them.

Then what do you have to say to people that totally adapted against range (cav + 1h/pole and shield) yet never got any decent result against it to actually justify the price of that adaptation ?

Before the patch, range had no melee/cav counters and was effective against everything except shielders (yet still effective if the shielders have to kill the ranged). Now, range still has no melee/cav counters, but at least isn't as effective against everything as before.

[Overdriven]

Basically the effects of the HA skill need to be increased massively since we already had damage+accuracy reduction.

TBefore the patch, range had no melee/cav counters and was effective against everything except shielders (yet still effective if the shielders have to kill the ranged). Now, range still has no melee/cav counters, but at least isn't as effective against everything as before.

Wait what? Cav is a perfect counter to range. Especially because ladders were removed.

[The_Bloody_Nine]

I don't think the devs wanted to disguise anything, in my eyes this has made ranged more skilful. It did break crossbows admittedly and I do hope they will re-balance them but overall the change was a good idea. Maybe archery will need a buff to accuracy but I hope the change itself stays. Yes HA is broken and I really do wish they would change that but the HA is a class which is hard to balance since it relies heavily on attrition of arrows.

ye, I don't think that either, just tried to tell how the change affects me when playing. I really can't tell (even theoretically) if it made ranged more skillful and if this is a good thing or not.

[Kafein]

Basically the effects of the HA skill need to be increased massively since we already had damage+accuracy reduction.

Wait what? Cav is a perfect counter to range. Especially because ladders were removed.

Yeah you got a point. But this is still very situational. Good archers don't position themselves in the middle of a street or just near the corner and never looking around them to make the job easy for enemy cav. And even on flat ground, a camp of 5-6 archers is pretty much impossible to attack since your horse is dead before you reached them. This didn't changed as now a front headshot = certified horse death. Finally, don't forget that just like in RL, humans weight 10g and can evade a full speed light horse while drawing a bow without any problems. The best way to bump those pixies is actually to slow down but then you die to other projectiles. Even now, attacking ranged is much more dangerous than attacking melee, for cav.

[XyNox]

Then what do you have to say to people that totally adapted against range (cav + 1h/pole and shield) yet never got any decent result against it to actually justify the price of that adaptation ?

Before the patch, range had no melee/cav counters and was effective against everything except shielders (yet still effective if the shielders have to kill the ranged). Now, range still has no melee/cav counters, but at least isn't as effective against everything as before.

As much I am for constructive criticism, this is, with all respect, the biggest bullshit Ive read so far on the whole topic. A ranged fighter is the most fragile target that walks the ground and is always the first thing focused by cav, melees and other ranged that have visual contact. Hell most melees would even run across the whole map and chase them to the borders just to get that kill. Now that archers have to get even closer due to the fact that a lvl 30 archer with a pure archer build still cant hit shit consistantly thats further away than 20 meters, thus being forced to headshot in order to do damage at all, those encounters are even more common and with the lack of melee support of the average, unorganized team archers are just as easy to kill as peasants. Peasants with bows that is. And dont get me started about the new arrow models which you cant see midair, leaving it up to you to take a guess where your arrows are going.

Seriously someone post a video in the guide section please so melee actually get an idea what they are talking about.

No offence intended.

[Adamar]

Learn the role of your class, support + killing, compared to cav/2h/polearm just killing. If you are getting as many kills as a 2h of the same skill as you then your class is not balanced, since you are getting as many kills and assisting others. The scoreboard is not entirely representative of how much you helped your team, ranged can pick off very important members of the enemy team whereas cavalry only kills indiscriminately.

You could have just started by saying that you dont think archers should be damagers, instead of saying that you had little problems with it.

As far as roles go, horsemen should be killers, shielders should be survivors, and 2handers who run around without anything short of plate should die by the arrow! Instead we turn them into walking pin-cushions until we are either forced to run, or do them a favor by risking a point blank headshot. Its a matter of defence vs damage, and archers are bad in both.

[XyNox]

Another thing:

support class, support class, support class, support class is all I read for pages now. Can anyone tell me how archers can "support" their team right now ? They either oneshot enemies or dont support at all.

Is the slow missile speed helpful for you team, causing those arrows to take more than a full second to hit a close/mid range target, so friendlies get the opportunity to "catch" them right before they would have hit the enemy ? Is this why archers are a supportclass ? I think not.

Maybe then it is the fact, that archers can weaken enemies from afar in order for inf to get easier kills. Well wait, with the recent nerf its 1HS or 12Bodyhits ( including dodging, hitbox errors, bowshotgunning it takes about 70% of all arrows you are carrying ) to kill a single enemy. Melees most likely wouldnt even need a single strike less to those targets you hit before.

But lets investigate further ... I could imagine its because archers can pinpoint enemies that are sneaking up behind fellow teammates, saving their lives or at least stunnig then for a second, right ? Sadly, behing a 45(30) year old guy, who spent half his life on training his archery skill does not mean youre able to operate a bow properly, leading to a high chance your bow will spaz out, headshotting your teammate that stands 90° to your right as you attempt to fire at enemies. The next shot might hit yourself in the knee.

Is it one of the "capabillities" above that make archers a support class ? Is there more the eye can see ? Please tell me.

[Kafein]

As much I am for constructive criticism, this is, with all respect, the biggest bullshit Ive read so far on the whole topic. A ranged fighter is the most fragile target that walks the ground and is always the first thing focused by cav, melees and other ranged that have visual contact. Hell most melees would even run across the whole map and chase them to the borders just to get that kill. Now that archers have to get even closer due to the fact that a lvl 30 archer with a pure archer build still cant hit shit consistantly thats further away than 20 meters, thus being forced to headshot in order to do damage at all, those encounters are even more common and with the lack of melee support of the average, unorganized team archers are just as easy to kill as peasants. Peasants with bows that is. And dont get me started about the new arrow models which you cant see midair, leaving it up to you to take a guess where your arrows are going.

Seriously someone post a video in the guide section please so melee actually get an idea what they are talking about.

No offence intended.

I think you need a video guide that would explain that an archer in rags runs faster than a shielder, even if the shielder is in rags too and magically survived the battle until he starts chasing the archer.

Ranged are focused by melee/cav when the opportunity is given because opportunities are nearly the only way. An archer may be fragile, that doesn't make him unable to dodge cav and outrun melee he is aware of. Possibly while kiting. You stressed on that, but I think this is exactly what makes your argument weaker. If ranged weren't dangerous, there would be no need to go after them. The fact you are pointing out is that melee and cav are focusing ranged. This is more a symptom of ranged power, rather than of a lack of it. I personally don't chase peasants or anyone that I consider weak enough not to be worth my time.

No offense intended.

[Dezilagel]

There's one thing I don't get from the archers: Since when did 2/3 damage equate no damage at all omgomgomg? Yes, it's a heavy damage nerf, it turns a 2-shot into a 3-shot but it's not rendered bodyshots completely useless. You still have damage, and you still have the stun.

[Kafein]

There's one thing I don't get from the archers: Since when did 2/3 damage equate no damage at all omgomgomg? Yes, it's a heavy damage nerf, it turns a 2-shot into a 3-shot but it's not rendered bodyshots completely useless. You still have damage, and you still have the stun.

Yep. Those horrible arrowstun-deathblow combos when you are quietly duelling some guy aren't gone. But I guess this is where the support role thing comes in.

[Overdriven]

There's one thing I don't get from the archers: Since when did 2/3 damage equate no damage at all omgomgomg? Yes, it's a heavy damage nerf, it turns a 2-shot into a 3-shot but it's not rendered bodyshots completely useless. You still have damage, and you still have the stun.

Depends on the bow...but for example with my MW hornbow, it used to take 5-6 barbed arrows to kill a guy in something like say...brigandine. Once you add the extra damage on post patch, that's now effectively 7-8 arrows needed. Not gonna happen ever.

Most of my grumbling come purely from the HA side of things. Although I do feel the normal archer nerf wasn't needed. I just want something done about HA because we really did get screwed over the most along with throwing. Particularly as 90% of the time an HA is shoot and move. We were already an annoyance due to our accuracy/damage reductions before the damage nerf...now we may as well not exist.

Edit:

I think they should add assists to the scoreboard. Then it would at least be a bit less frustrating. Yeah yeah yeah the scoreboard is for epeen blah blah blah. But lets face it, we all like to see ourselves in the upper sections of it.

[Dezilagel]

Depends on the bow...but for example with my MW hornbow, it used to take 5-6 barbed arrows to kill a guy in something like say...brigandine. Once you add the extra damage on post patch, that's now effectively 7-8 arrows needed. Not gonna happen ever.

Most of my grumbling come purely from the HA side of things. Although I do feel the normal archer nerf wasn't needed. I just want something done about HA because we really did get screwed over the most along with throwing. Particularly as 90% of the time an HA is shoot and move. We were already an annoyance due to our accuracy/damage reductions before the damage nerf...now we may as well not exist.

Well, I've actually tried some HA too (27/12 or 24/12, can't remember), and a good tactic is just to ride slowly up to/away from your target whilst shooting. (Negating HA penalty) Sure you're open to cav attacks, but no more than infantry, and besides maneuverable (i.e horses with good accel) horses are the best for HA.

just adjust your style a bit and you can get great acuuracy and be able to get even closer than footarchers since you are so much faster than a footsoldier.

[bonekuukkeli]

Then what do you have to say to people that totally adapted against range (cav + 1h/pole and shield) yet never got any decent result against it to actually justify the price of that adaptation ?

Before the patch, range had no melee/cav counters and was effective against everything except shielders (yet still effective if the shielders have to kill the ranged). Now, range still has no melee/cav counters, but at least isn't as effective against everything as before.

Adapted, but didn't learn. So it's more l2p issue than anything else. I never had problem against ranged and I have been playing now for 16 gens here listening some kind of whining about ranged. It's same thing as don't eat yellow snow, don't walk in open.

And same as guys are saying now. Chase and other melee have been doing really fine all this time, killing 30+ guys in map and such. So it really IS l2p issue. (fun when I compare it to one of pro players just like guys now compare to Jambi?)

[Overdriven]

Well, I've actually tried some HA too (27/12 or 24/12, can't remember), and a good tactic is just to ride slowly up to/away from your target whilst shooting. (Negating HA penalty) Sure you're open to cav attacks, but no more than infantry, and besides maneuverable (i.e horses with good accel) horses are the best for HA.

just adjust your style a bit and you can get great acuuracy and be able to get even closer than footarchers since you are so much faster than a footsoldier.

But that's the thing, HA shouldn't have to ride slowly in order to hit something. Though you'd have to with your strength build  You may as well just be a foot archer if you are going to do that and it pretty much ruins the gameplay of HA. You don't go as HA to ride slowly whilst shooting, you go for the fast riding and shooting and the intensity of it. Plus if you are in the cavalry fights, which most HA will be because it's one of the fundamental jobs of HA, you have to be able to shoot whilst riding fast and actually hit something for damage.

Like I posted in the other thread, it took 9 shots to a destrier, with a lancer finishing it off to kill it. 5 to a desert horse and 5 to an already damaged arabian. With horse head hitboxes as buggy as they are, an HA's main job has pretty much been cancelled out now.

Atm the best tactic is a shotgun style, risky but it works quite well. Notch the arrow just before you get there, drift you horse in close to the left, shoot from the side and then swoop out to the right. And there's always horse bumping as well. But considering we are forced to use a lower powered bow, and rarely will get a headshot if moving at speed, the damage nerf is very noticeable.