New ranged change

[Leshma]

2h weapons outrange the non sheath able  polearms. and 2h weapons do admirable damage upclose.    they still need to figure out a way to balance polearms if they remove the hitstun.

What about glaive?

[Dezilagel]

Amount of reach added to weapon length due to animation:

1h
Overhead = +0
Left-to-right = +0
Right-to-left = +19
Thrust = +61

2h
Overhead = +15
Left-to-right = +17
Right-to-left = +13
Thrust = +80

2h Polearms
Overhead = -15
Left-to-right = -7
Right-to-left = -2
Thrust = +19

1h Polearms
Thrust = +50

Using this it's pretty easy to figure out what ourreaches what.

That said, the Glavie is kind of a silly weapon imho, but if you have trouble fighting it with a GS, try doing it with a polearm. Same shit, just worse because you don't have the stab.

[[ptx]]

The above doesn't seem right. Especially the thrust for 1h and 2h.

[Xant]

2h isn't due to the animation change. God knows what it is now.

[Turkhammer]

Amount of reach added to weapon length due to animation:

1h
Overhead = +0
Left-to-right = +0
Right-to-left = +19
Thrust = +61

2h
Overhead = +15
Left-to-right = +17
Right-to-left = +13
Thrust = +80

2h Polearms
Overhead = -15
Left-to-right = -7
Right-to-left = -2
Thrust = +19

1h Polearms
Thrust = +50

Using this it's pretty easy to figure out what ourreaches what.

That said, the Glavie is kind of a silly weapon imho, but if you have trouble fighting it with a GS, try doing it with a polearm. Same shit, just worse because you don't have the stab.

Well, there you go.  Look at the difference between 2h and everyone else.  No wonder they've nerfed ranged.  The 2h are at such a disadvantage.

[Joker86]

I'm not talking about an archer duel. But they require completely different skill sets. If you are to blind to see that then so be it.

Archers have to watch for melee as well. Now that there is no roofcamping and long range archery is mostly luck based, it's very easy for melee to catch archers out. Take a shield and just work your way around towards them, it's perfectly manageable. It is the most dangerous, but that doesn't make it the most difficult. If you use some brains you can survive quite easily. The people it's most dangerous for are the ones who charge straight in and end up fighting multiple people because not enough of their team is with them. If you stick with your team properly and work with clan members or even friends, it reduces any form of danger drastically. But regardless, they require different skill sets and each has their own difficulties. But one is not particularly harder than the other to get a lot of kills and damage out put.

Okay, I sum up:

- if you want to play infantry, you need to join a clan so you always have friends around you, so your class is not that vulnerable, because you outnumber the enemy.

- archers and infantry need different skill sets. Infantry needs to move the mouse in the proper direction within the blink of an eye to be able to block an attack, they need to be constantly pressing W,A,S or D to have some footwork, and always while fighting you don't only have to concentrate on the enemy you are attacking, but also on his mates sorrounding him. Infantry has to be aware of archers shooting them, cavalry backstabbing them and infantry attacking them from the sides while fighting, because as infantry usually you always have enemy infantry around you.

Archers need to move the mouse correctly to make their bow shoot where they think it should shoot to, if they miss nothing bad happens (in difference to a failed block), and all they need to do is to click with the left mouse button. They also have to be aware of cavalry and archers. Oh! And of infantry, of course, to see them approach in time, so you can move a few steps to the side to bring a friendly infantryman between you and the enemy. Or shoot him to bits with your archer friends. It's totally comparable to an infantryman standing 4 meters away who suddenly decides to attack you. And infantry ALWAYS has enemy infantry a few meters away. ESPECIALLY if both teams use to play together, as you suggest it.

Yes, both classes need different skill sets. But the archer skill set is much easier than the infantry one.

[bonekuukkeli]

Just keep talking. Maybe you suck at melee as you make it sound so hard.

Anyone can figure out different kind of views about this thing. As melee you often 1-hit your light armoured enemy or with couple hits even medium ones. Easy. As archer you need to hit moving target quite many times in a row. And as arrows go in one direction only when compared to "easymode" melee swing that nowdays hit even targets behind as well. Not easymode? Well I see mostly melee guys in top scores so they must be?

Lonely archer is quite weak. So they need to join clan as well if they want someone to protect them. Actually... it's easier for melee to stay in big clusters and move in them. Archers need to stop and shoot.

Also, archers are often engaged in melee as well (some true heroes that don't whine here at forums might know more about this, you can ask around) and at this point pure melee has huge advantage. If one good 2h melee can sweep 3 archers from ruins with ease, it must mean that 2h is op? Nerf!

Archers need quite a lot of awareness while playing. Melee that has any IQ left in their brain actually needs to find holes in ranged players awareness and exploit them. Different skillsets and as it's really rare that ranged tops scoreboards (not many players can do that, unlike cavs that do it often), I could say either is easier than other.

Biggest problem is lack of creativity and idiot players whining and demanding nerfing to other classes when they can't play their own. This leads to situation when players feel their toons are getting nerf after nerf and soon move to other games.

See? We all can twist this thing around one side or another. But fact is that ranged haven't been serious threat to decent players in long time (if you don't look at roofcamping and even that is manageable).

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

Joker I understand what you are saying

However...

- Archers are not like infantry in the sense that they on average deal far less damage (even before patch)
- hitting targets consistently at medium ranges can be difficult if the infantry is aware of you.

A lot of infantry play is difficult, yes blocking is not always easy, yes there are constant dangers of being flanked but its a completely different playstyle. There is just as much skill involved in predicting target movements, long ranged shots, (without ladders) taking good positions and being able to fight lightly armed (kiting archers are a bit of a bitch) .

In my opinion we have

- Tank infantry who sacrifice safety for a decent damage output and try to balance this with heavier armour.
- Shock infantry who go for speed and extremely powerful blows
- Heavy archers who hit hard and sacrificed armour for accuracy, but this accuracy and can afford to deal a medium damage from safety
- Light archers who are fast and can kite very well (annoyingly), light damage at short ranges and stay out of harms way.
- xbowmen who with their reloads and nerfed damage feel a bit redundant

[Dezilagel]

Well, there you go.  Look at the difference between 2h and everyone else.  No wonder they've nerfed ranged.  The 2h are at such a disadvantage.

Oh, forgot to add the values for ranged:

Throwing: +750

Bows: +9001

Xbows: +9001

[Overdriven]

Yes, both classes need different skill sets. But the archer skill set is much easier than the infantry one.

Okey dokey then 

[XyNox]

As 90% of all melees dont seem to have brains and talk complete bs about archery, why dont we have a little event to proove it ? Lets say 5 known melees create skip the fun archery chars and 5 archers create melee chars and fight it out. It would be nice to see melees actually understand the basics of ranged combat, which is obviously not given at the moment. THEN we can go on with discussions about nerfing things.

[Thomek]

Made an archer STF some time ago with zero archery. Managed an even K:D ratio easy, but it was so boring to play him that I didn't explore it to any depth.

What I think though, about this whole discussion is that there is a BIG difference between the
MW bow + MW Arrows + lvl 33-34 Archers, and the rest of them.

Of course, the leet archers play the most (To get those lvls and mw) and those are the ones we hate. They either hit very hard or very accurate and run very fast.

So even if there are many more average archers around, the main pressure is felt by the pro archers that play a lot.

Imo Ranged is too gear and perhaps lvl dependent... And they need to be kept down in numbers a bit.

[justjr]

This is not the way to keep the archer numbers down. There's no such thing.
Remove archery is the only way to keep numbers really down, but too radical.

[Tears of Destiny]

Made an archer STF some time ago with zero archery. Managed an even K:D ratio easy, but it was so boring to play him that I didn't explore it to any depth.

So what you are saying is that this was before the required 14wpf per PD, and well before the significantly slower arrow velocities?

So ancient history countless patches old?

[Nehvar]

That 2h thrust info is outdated.  I believe it is something like +60 now.  Maybe less.