Author Topic: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?  (Read 10992 times)

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Offline Lansamur

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2011, 11:24:45 pm »
0
See, the best way to get randomers to teamplay:

1. Assign yourself to a Batallion and carry the flag
2. Use simple orders in Teamchat, e.g.:
"Follow Red Flag (bat1)"
"Care Left Flank"
"Prepare Countercharge"

Best in CAPS
3. Win.

Just used it for 3-4 rounds and won all of them, then my game crashed, team instalost as I heard via TS. Came on again, worked again. Try it out if you think you got the balls to be a commander for a bunch of random people.
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Offline Gisbert_of_Thuringia

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2011, 11:50:07 pm »
0
See, the best way to get randomers to teamplay:

1. Assign yourself to a Batallion and carry the flag
2. Use simple orders in Teamchat, e.g.:
"Follow Red Flag (bat1)"
"Care Left Flank"
"Prepare Countercharge"

Best in CAPS
3. Win.

Just used it for 3-4 rounds and won all of them, then my game crashed, team instalost as I heard via TS. Came on again, worked again. Try it out if you think you got the balls to be a commander for a bunch of random people.

Your commands are too complicated for most players :P    I think the only words most people understand are "stick together" "regroup" "wait" "charge"  :D


Btw, you weren't the only one commanding there :O  And it was your stupid idea to go left :D


But in general I agree, just take a flag and tell people to follow it and give some easy and clear to understand orders. If you have maybe some clanmembers or some people you know on the server it makes it even easier, as they usually start following one person of the same clan and thus make other people to follow as well
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 11:51:29 pm by Gisbert_of_Thuringia »

Offline Blashyrkh

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2011, 11:59:52 pm »
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First you have to make a name for yourself to be counted as a commander (works well for Phaz --> merc guy i think) cuz nobody will listen to you if you're a nobody (which makes it hard for people like me who change their nicknames every gen). I most of the time do as one has the idea to do something, but there are only 4 -5 people interested to work together out of the 50 in one team.

you should make a poll in the beginning of the map where you could vote for a leader (who would write for his team chat with a different color like one suggested)
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Offline Teeth

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2011, 12:24:28 am »
0
See, the best way to get randomers to teamplay:

1. Assign yourself to a Batallion and carry the flag
2. Use simple orders in Teamchat, e.g.:
"Follow Red Flag (bat1)"
"Care Left Flank"
"Prepare Countercharge"

Best in CAPS
3. Win.

Just used it for 3-4 rounds and won all of them, then my game crashed, team instalost as I heard via TS. Came on again, worked again. Try it out if you think you got the balls to be a commander for a bunch of random people.
The banner is huge and I cant fight at all with that thing in my screen, can't they be made transparent or invisible for the person carrying it? Basically this limits the usage of flags to shielders, because manual blocking is dirthard with a flag.

Its a choice between leading or fighting, and if I can't fight properly while leading I'll die early and your leadership is gone.

Offline Thomek

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2011, 12:51:19 am »
+2
Some people here say how easy it is to lead right now, that we have the tools, that players follow etc. That is all lies. Thing is, it doesn't work when only HALF the team follow commands. You need at least 80-90% to be in on it.

Yes it IS still possible, but it requires often several maps, since players get's switched around for each map. One loss because of a bad decision, bad timing, bad luck, or generally bad teamplay by the very players you try to command can ruin your standing as a leader. It's can mostly be embarrassing or just tiresome to see your team fail again and again.

I.ex you have a strategy that requires your whole team to move constantly for them not to get fucked from behind by the other team zerg mob. Of course 2/3rds stop to shoot and recharge, get's kited by cav they should ignore, and get raped. It's much much harder to backstab a moving team. Stuff like this.. People don't realize the dynamics of the battle.

I recommend everyone to try and spectate a battle from birds eye. The retardation and predictability becomes extremely clear.

Thing is a Win to Loss ratio on rounds or even maps doesn't lie. Eventually, the best commanders would be someone who somehow manages to push the autobalance in his favour. This is nearly impossible by pure individual skill, as the mathematics of the autobalancer eventually catches up with your score and weighs you in for your average play. This would not happen to leaders, as the autobalancer AFAIK doesn't look at round W:L ratio, only individual skill.

Anyway.. My point is that YES it is possible to do rough tactical commanding and teamwork now, but it requires a huge effort with little gain. I think we still need a little buff to help it make it more convenient and natural to the gameplay.

Let me describe the 3 main elements a little clearer. (Suggestions on how it could work)

1. Commanders.
At the beginning of MAP, after autobalance:
a. Check for players above gen5. (or with a collected XP on alts and mains over a certain threshold)
b. Among those, check who has the best ROUND WIN TO LOSS ratio for the last month or so.
c. Send out invitations For Leader and Assistant Leader to the two BEST W:L ratio players. If they decline, send invites to the next best etc.  (You should be able to disable leadership invites on website)
e. The chosen Leader and Assistant gets access to special colored chat text for their team commands, and perhaps a leadership chat.
f. A leader should be immune to being autobalanced.
(g.) Perhaps being leader should give access to a special Horn button, sounding all over the battlefield when pressed. This could be used to Rally troops to Leader, or to pure spam, to start charges or to hold and wait. I would like it to be spammable. Codes could eventually develop naturally.

2. Banners and Banner carriers
a. At the website, let's say after 1 generation, you can choose to be a Banner Carrier. 
b. You choose a type of banner, each one giving different bonuses as a passive Area of Effect. One for ranged, one for melee, one for cav. (Let's say draw speed or accuracy, Powerstrike or HP, Charge bonus)
c. In-game the most experienced Banner Carriers gets an offer to carry it. Let's say it takes the two last slots.
d. If you manage to live through the battle with it you get Valour.
e. If an enemy manage to pick it up and hold it until end of round he gets Valour. (LoL tk a banner holder grants you 24h automatic ban...)

3. Walk speed

Press TAB once and you toggle synchronized walk or run.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 01:25:44 am by Thomek »
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Offline IR_Kuoin

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2011, 12:56:09 am »
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Love your ideas Thomek, but thats nothing new  :D

Exept the last part with the same run speed, I want to outrun my foes.
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Offline IR_Kuoin

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2011, 12:59:02 am »
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Why don't "they" set up a teambased server so that everyone can get on TS or something and we have team controlled teams *BAD GRAMMAR* that can fight each other.
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Offline Thomek

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2011, 01:02:23 am »
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Well I know it has all been suggested before Kuoin.. :)

I just hope they will finally listen, now that they have more coders and seem to be pretty active!

And I just got the mess of everyday pub play up my throat, so I had to clear it.

The TS thing has also been suggested before.. Not so easy to do as far as I remember. Think it is difficult to integrate TS and cRPG.

Anyhow I'm sure Bulldog wouldn't mind opening up a public open cRPG battle chan on his TS. But IDK if I could handle the trolling by voice.. lol :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 01:03:29 am by Thomek »
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Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2011, 01:05:56 am »
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No, but you're sure as hell going to match the speed of your comrades if in formation.

I would greatly appreciate a "set speed" button for formations.
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Offline Riddaren

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2011, 01:13:24 am »
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I love teamplay just as much as I hate the lack of it.

A good example of mass stupidity:

- Enemy team is camping on a roof with plenty of ranged players. This team has X1.
- My team is full of melee players and horses. This team has X5.

In these situations it should be obvious for my teamates what to do:
Stand ground, milk it and just wait for flags.

I don't get why a team full of players with X5 "intentionally" loses their X5 by making the worst possible moves...
Instead of waiting for the situatation to change they all attack the enemy at a great disadvantage.

Waiting for flags is often the best move you can make and sometimes it's the only good chance you have to win the round.
So please be more patient and make use of flag tactics.

Offline Riddaren

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2011, 01:21:13 am »
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Just have to add that I love the ideas you have Thomek. Would be awesome if some of what you suggested got implemented.

Offline dodnet

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2011, 01:37:22 am »
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Waiting for flags is often the best move you can make and sometimes it's the only good chance you have to win the round.
So please be more patient and make use of flag tactics.

Just waiting for flags is fucking boring too.
The logic of war seems to be that if a belligerent can fight he will fight.

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Offline Kafein

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2011, 02:00:14 am »
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Just waiting for flags is fucking boring too.

Yep. The fact that waiting for flags is the best thing to do at some point in many battles, due to the rampant roof camping, is SAD.

Tactics aren't always boring campfests. In fact, when we did more teamwork in Pecores with Coin as leader, the infantry group spent most of the time maneuvering around the enemy, trying to get the terrain advantage, opening firing lines for our archers, and forcing the enemy to move into open ground for cav.

Playing the tactical game in a dynamic way will, I think, make more people listen. It is also more difficult to make people understand what you want, though.

Offline ThePoopy

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2011, 02:24:56 am »
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just spam a command in caps and pubs will listen, dont change to often

Offline Joker86

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2011, 03:12:52 am »
+1
I already suggested it somewhere else - make a poll in the forum to decide which volunteers for being commander enjoy the highest respect and faith of the community, and once the vote is set those on top of the list (about 10 to 20 players, I would say) get a special status on the servers, similar to admins (I never was admin, but I suppose you are automatically admin if you log in to a server with your character, or do you need to log in extra?), with having access to some nice commander tools.

Whenever there are two or more commanders, both will be autobalanced into different teams, and the commander tools will be unlocked. If there is only one commander he can't use his abilities, as it would be unfair for the team without commander. If there are more than two commanders, a ranking system will decide, according to the result of the forum poll.

To encourage players of following those commands you could give a small experience or gold reward, e.g. reaching a flag position (once per tick possible, no abuse by moving the flag a meter every second, farming money and experience).

I just got the funny idea that players could also get small rewards for every killed enemy (5xp, 2gold, or perhaps 0.01 more on multiplier?) within a certain range (50m radius?) as long as they did NOT kill them, themselves. I bet this would have funny effects on player behaviour, making them support and protect the others, in the hope of helping them to kill an enemy. I don't think enemies would be sorrounded but not attacked, the greed won't go that far, but it could support more little "suqads" like a shielder at the front, followed by a two handed fighter and both supported by a pikeman and a crossbowman. If they decide to help and protect each other this squad is a damn nightmare for everyone.

If you don't want to see or hear those commands you can disable them with a key combination, similar to muting all players, but I think it is important to have it activated by default to "catch" all those casual players who are not that into tactics or community affairs at all, thus not being up to date about new features like this.

The idea with the forum vote is not ideal, but I don't see any other solution to evade any tiresome ingamevote which probably won't succeed in most cases anyway, if the engine allows votes with more than two options at all. And any other "automatic" designation will be more than suboptimal, as the personal k/d doesn't say anything about this person's tactical or at least leadership skills. Most coaches for any team based sport would perform rather bad if sent on the field (again), and many of the best tacticians in history (e.g. Napoleon) were not really strong fighters, compared so some seasoned sergeants in their armies. And yet the coaches, and not the top goal getters decide about the tactic, the generals and not the non comissioned decide about what an army will do. So the K/D-ratio is really a bad base for determining who should be commander.

The votes could be repeated regularly, and the W/L-ratios of the different commanders (when being in charge, of course) could be tracked, so after a few months there would be a hand full of accepted and capable commanders. cRPG and strategus seems to be the attempt to transfer the entire single player gameplay to multiplayer, with the only difference that there are no bots, only players. So having a commander would still fit to this, as in single player it's always someone who's commanding the rest. Especially as both determining who is the commander as well as listening to his orders is up to every single player to decide for himself.

Anyway, I am more intelligent, so I am right, there is nothing to discuss about. Period.  :wink:
Joker makes a very good point.
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