Cavalry is underpowered and unrealistic. Degrees of turn on lance too low.

[Xant]

I'm sorry, but I stopped reading when you said "CRPG is alot more balanced than Native".  I can't even tell if you are being serious or not.

If you think c-RPG isn't more balanced than Native, you haven't got a clue.

[Revo142]

Basically, what torben said. Lancing in native and crpg are two different things. adapt, we all did

Just because we are able to adapt to things does not make them right.

As I said, cav vs cav battles are now terrible due to the lance nerf.  It seems like a few people agree with me on that point.

I will say it again, increasing the degrees of turn on the lance will only allow skilled cav players to be truly rewarded.  Bad one's will still die.

Furthurmore, it is completely rediculous that a 2Hander can effortlessly take down a charging horse with either a thrust or an incredibly stupid and unrealistic jump slash.

If you tried to thrust your sword into a charging horse, you would get royally fucked up.  As for jump lashing a rider out of his saddle, that would require superhuman reflexes to time correctly (Meh, some highly trained martial artists might be able to pull off this first requirement).  The second requirement however, is superhuman strength.  That is, unless you want your arms to get ripped out of their sockets and you're neck snapped by the impact of a 1200 pound horse galloping at 40mph.

[Torben]

(click to show/hide)

Just because we are able to adapt to things does not make them right.

As I said, cav vs cav battles are now terrible due to the lance nerf.  It seems like a few people agree with me on that point.

I will say it again, increasing the degrees of turn on the lance will only allow skilled cav players to be truly rewarded.  Bad one's will still die.

Furthurmore, it is completely rediculous that a 2Hander can effortlessly take down a charging horse with either a thrust or an incredibly stupid and unrealistic jump slash.

If you tried to thrust your sword into a charging horse, you would get royally fucked up.  As for jump lashing a rider out of his saddle, that would require superhuman reflexes to time correctly (Meh, some highly trained martial artists might be able to pull off this first requirement).  The second requirement however, is superhuman strength.  That is, unless you want your arms to get ripped out of their sockets and you're neck snapped by the impact of a 1200 pound horse galloping at 40mph.

it comes down to balance dude.  other classes have a standing chance now.  give me 20% more lancing angle,  and even more infantry will helplessly die.

[Dezilagel]

Just because we are able to adapt to things does not make them right.

As I said, cav vs cav battles are now terrible due to the lance nerf.  It seems like a few people agree with me on that point.

I will say it again, increasing the degrees of turn on the lance will only allow skilled cav players to be truly rewarded.  Bad one's will still die.

Furthurmore, it is completely rediculous that a 2Hander can effortlessly take down a charging horse with either a thrust or an incredibly stupid and unrealistic jump slash.

If you tried to thrust your sword into a charging horse, you would get royally fucked up.  As for jump lashing a rider out of his saddle, that would require superhuman reflexes to time correctly (Meh, some highly trained martial artists might be able to pull off this first requirement).  The second requirement however, is superhuman strength.  That is, unless you want your arms to get ripped out of their sockets and you're neck snapped by the impact of a 1200 pound horse galloping at 40mph.

Yes horses were very OP in RL.

Yes horses are OP in Native.

That doesn't somehow justify them being OP here.

And it's easy to see just by looking at the scoreboard that there are good and bad cav here - the same people consistently top the scores.

Ever considered that you may not be the best cav player in the world and that people here may actually be better than you?

[Revo142]

Yes horses were very OP in RL.

Yes horses are OP in Native.

That doesn't somehow justify them being OP here.

And it's easy to see just by looking at the scoreboard that there are good and bad cav here - the same people consistently top the scores.

Ever considered that you may not be the best cav player in the world and that people here may actually be better than you?

Once again, you clearly did not read the part where I clearly stated that I DON'T want cav to be buffed to Native standards.  Just a little increase on the lance degree, that's all.  You, as well as others, are taking my post to the extreme's and putting words into my mouth. 

And guess what? "Better" or "Worse" hardly means anything for cav players in CRPG.  I take it that you enjoy 1 dementional cav battles where the player who gets on you're 6 0 Clock wins, and the factors determining the winner of a lance on lance charge is far more random and less skill based than it is in native?

Hmm.

[Tomas_of_Miles]

Once again, you clearly did not read the part where I clearly stated that I DON'T want cav to be buffed to Native standards.  Just a little increase on the lance degree, that's all.  You, as well as others, are taking my post to the extreme's and putting words into my mouth. 

And guess what? "Better" or "Worse" hardly means anything for cav players in CRPG.  I take it that you enjoy 1 dementional cav battles where the player who gets on you're 6 0 Clock wins, and the factors determining the winner of a lance on lance charge is far more random and less skill based than it is in native?

Hmm.

The lovely fella is dedicated infantry. SNM. 

[Xant]

And guess what? "Better" or "Worse" hardly means anything for cav players in CRPG.  I take it that you enjoy 1 dementional cav battles where the player who gets on you're 6 0 Clock wins, and the factors determining the winner of a lance on lance charge is far more random and less skill based than it is in native?

Hmm.

Even with 2 riding and a sumpter horse I could maneuver so that I don't get killed by dedicated cav that get behind me. It was kind of fun actually, kinda like jet fighting.

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

I'm sorry, but I stopped reading when you said "CRPG is alot more balanced than Native".  I can't even tell if you are being serious or not.

That sentence shows me, that you actually don't know what you're even talking about here 

I'm out of this thread

[Dezilagel]

Once again, you clearly did not read the part where I clearly stated that I DON'T want cav to be buffed to Native standards.  Just a little increase on the lance degree, that's all.  You, as well as others, are taking my post to the extreme's and putting words into my mouth. 

And guess what? "Better" or "Worse" hardly means anything for cav players in CRPG.  I take it that you enjoy 1 dementional cav battles where the player who gets on you're 6 0 Clock wins, and the factors determining the winner of a lance on lance charge is far more random and less skill based than it is in native?

Hmm.

Who didn't read what?

You spoke of realism - I thought that was bullshit.

I never spoke about to what degree to buff cav, you just assumed that I assumed that you wanted cav to be buffed to native standards which was NOT AT ALL what I was trying to say. My point was that playing cav is harder here, but far from UP, and that's it's a different game that you'll just have to learn. Besides - messing with the lance angle would require work with the clientside WSE. (Right now, it uses the couch angle) I'm not sure how much, but I'm guessing quite a bit judging from dev behaviour in the past.

And about these "one-dimensional" cav battles:

I've played some cav in native and a little here as well. And personally I find the cav battles here to hold greater depth since maneuvering your entire horse into proper positioning requires a hell of a lot more effort, planning and, well *skill* than simply putting the lance behind you and letting go at the right time. (Over-simplification I know, but seriously; In native I always use the same turn-to-the-side big sweeping lance attack that kills just about anyone) You talk about someone "getting on your 6 o' clock" like it's something that just happens. It is not, that player has obviously outmaneuvered you. (Also there are some very effective techniques that can be used to get out of that situation, frequently employed by the top cav players)

And how is it more "random" in c-rpg than in native then? Sure here there might be situations were you are already fucked and can't remedy it in the last second with a turn around and good lance timing (but honestly, this "timing" game is what really made me stop playing cav, since its on the same level as archery when it comes to how dull, simple, and bland it is imo.), but that only speaks to me as a sign of increased depth of cav combat. It now requires you to think a little ahead.

And I find it funny that you just dismiss the skill of the entire cav-community here. As I told you, the same cav players consistently top the scores - you think that's for nothing?

If you'd come here (well, and show that you at least know what you're doing) and then complain that you feel restricted in your lance usage - fine that sounds like a reasonable complaint.

But coming here and going "I get beaten here, cav must take no skill since I'm bestest cav evah!!11" and then continuing by dismissing our entire cav community and along the way spewing BULLSHIT such as that cav should beat 1h and 2h "effortlessly" is just stupid imo.

[Teeth]

Slightly offtopic but whenever I try being a lancer in CRPG I get my ass kicked in cav vs cav duels. I feel like the lance thrusting animation and the moment where it actually hits are off. I have no idea when to actually stab, it seems very unpredictable. In native I got the hang of the timing quite quickly and rarely ever lost a cav vs cav head on charge. Here it feels a bit like Russian Roulette.

[Torben]

Slightly offtopic but whenever I try being a lancer in CRPG I get my ass kicked in cav vs cav duels. I feel like the lance thrusting animation and the moment where it actually hits are off. I have no idea when to actually stab, it seems very unpredictable. In native I got the hang of the timing quite quickly and rarely ever lost a cav vs cav head on charge. Here it feels a bit like Russian Roulette.

on head on charges lots of people play with different factors to make your stab off time,  maneuver,  speed and release time to mention some,  thats what makes the arrab immensely strong vs other cav

[Kafein]

I didn't read half the posts, but nonetheless there are a few things I'd like to say.

I hate the fact that 2h have an advantage over cav. Due to low maneuver and lancing angle, cav have to start their attacks very early, being slow and very predictable. The range advantage of the heavy lance over 2h swords is extremely short and non-existent when the angle isn't perfect. Add to this the fact that any decent footman build can move 5 meters in all directions during the time between the release of the horseman attack and the ideal hit. You get that even noob 2h often kill skilled lancers, be it by moving towards the front of the horse and killing both the horse and the rider with a thrust, or simply evading the lance to the side and moving in again while doing an overhead slash. Evasions + side swings also work.

1h also have chances of fighting cav more or less effectively. But with that I'm really fine, since these options require decent skill. Thrusted lances can be chamberblocked quite easily, and couched lances can be evaded to the side while doing a side swing. But that's hard to do.

Another thing I despise is the ability of most archer builds to evade cav attacks like 10g pixies with turbo jets. That just isn't right. Nerfing horse maneuver should have been accompanied by a human maneuver nerf. This isn't unreal tournament, people are not supposed to run, jump, fire and turn around at the same time, nor reaching usain bolt speed after a tenth of second of sidestepping. And certainly not if horses aren't able to do it to a decent degree. In the end, it's easier to kill a shielder than a ranged due to the added weight and and generally weaker agility, which is simply retarded.

The reason the lance angle nerf was applied is mainly to make 1h cav viable again, but it failed because the reason 1h cav is bad isn't the cav vs cav fights, it's that absolutely every footman can either outrange and kill you or evade your attacks effortlessly. I'm not saying to revert it to Native. But there are other things that need to be changed in order to fix both the internal and external cav balance.

on head on charges lots of people play with different factors to make your stab off time,  maneuver,  speed and release time to mention some,  thats what makes the arrab immensely strong vs other cav

Even without going into detail with turning to the right or left, decelerating slightly etc. The arab warhorse is smaller (this stat used to appear in on the website and ingame, but it doesn't anymore). And that makes hitting it's head harder.

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

Cavalry is fine as it is. There was a loss of skill in cav vs cav fights since the lance angle decrease but at the same time this did mean that playing something other than ha or lancer was a moire viable cavalry class that wouldnt just get raped by lancers constantly. I have to say, I'm a hybrid cav using a warspear off horseback (which has the same angle limitations of a lance) and I still get my fair share of kills on all classes, I dont feel cavalry needs to be bumped up. Especially while most infantry dont have the awareness or mentality to fight cavalry, my hoplite character spends most of his time either at the front of the line soaking up hits with a large shield or at the back killing cav, if more people played to protect from cav at the back cavalry would be a dead class quite soon :/

[Osiris]

no we should bow before this almighty destroyer of worlds from horseback!

[Teeth]

(click to show/hide)

I didn't read half the posts, but nonetheless there are a few things I'd like to say.

I hate the fact that 2h have an advantage over cav. Due to low maneuver and lancing angle, cav have to start their attacks very early, being slow and very predictable. The range advantage of the heavy lance over 2h swords is extremely short and non-existent when the angle isn't perfect. Add to this the fact that any decent footman build can move 5 meters in all directions during the time between the release of the horseman attack and the ideal hit. You get that even noob 2h often kill skilled lancers, be it by moving towards the front of the horse and killing both the horse and the rider with a thrust, or simply evading the lance to the side and moving in again while doing an overhead slash. Evasions + side swings also work.

1h also have chances of fighting cav more or less effectively. But with that I'm really fine, since these options require decent skill. Thrusted lances can be chamberblocked quite easily, and couched lances can be evaded to the side while doing a side swing. But that's hard to do.

Another thing I despise is the ability of most archer builds to evade cav attacks like 10g pixies with turbo jets. That just isn't right. Nerfing horse maneuver should have been accompanied by a human maneuver nerf. This isn't unreal tournament, people are not supposed to run, jump, fire and turn around at the same time, nor reaching usain bolt speed after a tenth of second of sidestepping. And certainly not if horses aren't able to do it to a decent degree. In the end, it's easier to kill a shielder than a ranged due to the added weight and and generally weaker agility, which is simply retarded.

The reason the lance angle nerf was applied is mainly to make 1h cav viable again, but it failed because the reason 1h cav is bad isn't the cav vs cav fights, it's that absolutely every footman can either outrange and kill you or evade your attacks effortlessly. I'm not saying to revert it to Native. But there are other things that need to be changed in order to fix both the internal and external cav balance.

Even without going into detail with turning to the right or left, decelerating slightly etc. The arab warhorse is smaller (this stat used to appear in on the website and ingame, but it doesn't anymore). And that makes hitting it's head harder.

From a footmans perspective:

Yes, the stab of the top tier greatswords is about as long as the lance, but only if you aim at the horse. You can hit the horse if you time it well, but not the rider, unless the cav really messes up. You would think a cav moving at full speed towards you would die from a stab in the face with an 28p weapon. Coursers, destriers as well as arabians can survive such a stab when they have full health. Funny thing is, if I hit the horse and the horse doesn't die, I'm dead. Cause the lance thrust doesn't give a shit about the horse getting hit and keeps going.

So if you charge a greatsworder with a full health horse and you both time it perfectly, the greatsworder is dead and your horse is hurt.

I always think its strange that a MW German stab doesn't kill a Courser with 100 hitpoints and 18 body armor, but a MW heavy lance does kill me, with 63 hitpoints and 60 body armor, 48 head armor.

Also, horses have a very early bump, and 2h stabs have a very slow release. So a quick reaction stab rarely works.

You get that even noob 2h often kill skilled lancers

I think you mean that good 2h often kill noob lancers. Even I with 400 hours of Greatsword experience see a cav vs stab duel as a scary thing. Missing, or just hitting the horse mostly means death. I see that  a lot of cav mess up their timing when you pretend that you are unaware and that is what makes me kill quite some cav.