Poll

Why don't you enjoy playing on EU 1 ?

Lots of ranged makes the game unplayable ...
Lots of cav charging from everywhere makes the game unplayable...
Lots of melee attacking from everywhere makes the game unplayable (Explain how please)
I think EU_1 is fine . I like how it is.
Main problem is ladders to roofs , the amount of ranged is fine.
I don't know about gameplay but with this upkeep , i can't play...

Author Topic: [POLL] About EU_1 Battle.Why its no fun anymore ? Or is it fun ?  (Read 22398 times)

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Offline Odion

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Re: [POLL] About EU_1 Battle.Why its no fun anymore ? Or is it fun ?
« Reply #60 on: December 02, 2011, 12:40:37 pm »
0
just remove ladders from battle!


there is no problem with range in siege because:

1: they are not the primary objective (the flag is)
2:they are REACHABLE

but when you play battle with archers that camp UNREACHABLE spots you make half the player base useless.

even if you nerf bow damage to 1, archers will still be a problem because of unreachable roofs

Offline bonekuukkeli

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Re: [POLL] About EU_1 Battle.Why its no fun anymore ? Or is it fun ?
« Reply #61 on: December 02, 2011, 12:42:54 pm »
-2
Just make ladders more durable. Every 2 hander can carry their own ladders if they wish and kill those archers. Most of time they just don't. It's easier to cry here at forums and demand nerfs to everyone else when you just _want_ to play easy rambo-mode.

Offline Herkkutatti

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Re: [POLL] About EU_1 Battle.Why its no fun anymore ? Or is it fun ?
« Reply #62 on: December 02, 2011, 12:45:41 pm »
-1
put limits to each team 15 ranged and 10 cav max!!
/l
(゚、 。 7
l、 ~ヽ
じしf_, )ノ Nerf archery ,please!

Offline Tot.

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Re: [POLL] About EU_1 Battle.Why its no fun anymore ? Or is it fun ?
« Reply #63 on: December 02, 2011, 12:47:31 pm »
+1
I dont play battle - unless I totally have to - since it's a bullshit mode which belongs to e-sport wannabie games like CS and isnt a medieval battle simulation one bit, but if I were to play it the biggest issue would be that for an infantryman most of the time battle mode is either taking cover from ranged fire or chasing them. Not fun at all.

Hard-limiting amout of ranged to like 5-10% would make things better certainly.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 12:50:08 pm by Tot. »
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Offline Leshma

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Re: [POLL] About EU_1 Battle.Why its no fun anymore ? Or is it fun ?
« Reply #64 on: December 02, 2011, 12:48:36 pm »
+2
You know when I get sick in my stomach?

When after a new patch where archers have been nerfed, some lowlife dedicated archer comes and says how game isn't fair, how xbowmen are stronger than them. Like there is just two fucking classes in the whole game and both are ranged.

Koldborn is right, this isn't the game for people who came here to learn and enjoy advanced melee combat (compared to other games yet still silly and simple). On every newbie like Grumbs comes 9 newbies who wan't to play sniper or Legolas and 50% of them are some history, medieval loving douchebags who like to pull that famous "Agincourt" argument when it comes to balance discussions.

Sadly for us, we need a  completely historically inaccurate game to enjoy advanced melee combat, a game where history students won't come to fulfil fantasies, in which they take role of their ancestors who fought in that battle and did that and blah blah blah.

Offline HarunYahya

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Re: [POLL] About EU_1 Battle.Why its no fun anymore ? Or is it fun ?
« Reply #65 on: December 02, 2011, 12:49:38 pm »
+3
Fyi problem is not about ranged damage.
It is about ranged amount.

I don't understand people saying "Get a shield nab" .
Yes Einsteins you can block an incoming arrow from like 120 degrees .
Getting a shield is not a solution . It helps for 30seconds or 1 minute . It protects you from insta-headshot at the beginning but when you decide to "play" as a 2h or non-spartan polearm character , you should unsheate your shield and pick your poleaxe or 2handed sword when you do that you just die without even swing your weapon cuz our "support" archers shoot anything . They shoot to melee they sometimes shoot their teammates but they take the risk to TK just to kill enemy infantry.This is unrealistic bullshit.
Even if you are a dedicated shielder once you are fighting with enemy infantry you move cuz you know there are really less people who can't block on EU_1 so you should use footwork and turn enemies to create opportunities to your teammates or to kill them . When you do that an asshat from an unreachable roof shoots you from behind.
I am not against ranged on servers but this is not realistic and getting boring these days.

Im sure most of the people got bored of chasing 5 archers at the end of the round they just spread out , run like bundle of stickss and surround you then pew pew to death...

Some turds posted some historical so called "facts" to support archery but you guys forget 1 thing .
Archers were firing to soften enemy ranks before infantry charge. When melee battle occurs they just shoot other incoming enemy regiment or fleeing enemies they weren't skilled enough to headshot an enemy infantry while he was fighting 3 men...

Value of life is low in cRPG compared to rl ofc cuz its a game that's why archers can take the risk to TK and master their "sniping skills"
It's ok when 10-20-30 archers doing that but when it becomes %50 of the server it kills the game.

Offline Tot.

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Re: [POLL] About EU_1 Battle.Why its no fun anymore ? Or is it fun ?
« Reply #66 on: December 02, 2011, 12:59:45 pm »
+1
Oh BTW. someone mentioned historical accuracy and the effectiveness of ranged - if we were to delve into this then first obvious question is why plate armor doesn't completely negate archery aside from really lucky arrows. They wouldn't be bothering with crossbows if it didnt, you know.  :wink:
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Offline Tor!

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Re: [POLL] About EU_1 Battle.Why its no fun anymore ? Or is it fun ?
« Reply #67 on: December 02, 2011, 01:00:11 pm »
+1
Fyi problem is not about ranged damage.
It is about ranged amount.

It's both man, dmg is crazy as well.
[00:53] <xant> i used to play on eu_1
[00:53] <xant> then i took an arrow to the knee

Offline HarunYahya

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Re: [POLL] About EU_1 Battle.Why its no fun anymore ? Or is it fun ?
« Reply #68 on: December 02, 2011, 01:13:35 pm »
0
It's both man, dmg is crazy as well.
(click to show/hide)
So to long story short:
For realism archery damage is ok but melee damage is way too low.
For game balance you are right if i survive 3-5 giant weapon swings to my chest i could've survive more than 10 arrows to my chest.

Offline Paul

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Re: [POLL] About EU_1 Battle.Why its no fun anymore ? Or is it fun ?
« Reply #69 on: December 02, 2011, 01:18:19 pm »
+5
I like how I managed to redirect some of the archer hate towards xbows.

Two ideas I had to make turn and run less attractive for ranged would be

1)
Allowing ammo (arrows&bolts) only in the 3rd and 4th item slot. With that taking 3 ammo stacks is impossible and people would always have a spare slot for a melee weapon. It would fit the historical context too because I doubt that there were any ranged troops without a fallback melee weapon. Disadvantage some fellow dev brought up is that this reduces equipment layout choices. Obvious advantage is that it reduces the overall ammo count and the need for an archer to turn and run if he has no melee weapon.

2)
I'll ask cmp for the Native sprint mode code. Maybe we can make it so that someone with a bow or crossbow in the inventory has a slower sprint mode than a melee guy. With that even a lighter armored ranger can't simply run away, turn, shoot and run again. The melee guy would catch him quickly.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 01:19:44 pm by Paul »

Offline Xant

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Re: [POLL] About EU_1 Battle.Why its no fun anymore ? Or is it fun ?
« Reply #70 on: December 02, 2011, 01:24:17 pm »
0
Number two sounds very good. Essentially, it'd achieve 1) too, because any smart archer would bring a melee backup.
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Offline Kafein

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Re: [POLL] About EU_1 Battle.Why its no fun anymore ? Or is it fun ?
« Reply #71 on: December 02, 2011, 01:26:28 pm »
+1
Guess what, get a fucking shield, it's not hard to waste 1 or 2 points in shield skill, arrows don't penetrate shields, bolts do.

Yes they do. Except when the shielder is exactly ( 10° error maximum ) facing the archer, or when he got 8+ shield skill.

And anyway, as soon as there are two archers on the opposite side, the shielder is pretty much dead.


The class that is designed to counter archers is in fact better at killing melee. Just like with every build you can think of, the easiest prey is melee. Melee attack melee because they are closer and willing to engage. Ranged attack melee because they can't defend. Cav attack melee because they are occupied/helpless (killing 1h is the easiest thing to do for a lance cav). Now if we consider the other classes, it appears that ranged are the hardest preys. As melee, they will run in various directions and shoot you in the back. They are able to run away and attack you at the same time. Cav however, can't do that. They are forced to come in melee range to hit, therefore even if they flee they can't attack back, which means that in reality they never flee. Furthermore the majority of footmen have weapons long enough to have better chances than 50% against a lancer. Only 1h require a good loljump to kill the cav, but it's doable. Not to mention that you can still chamber the lance. So in the end, inf will never catch a fleeing cav, but anyway a fleeing cav is like a dead cav as he can't do anything. However, ranged are both able to kill the fleeing cav, and to attack and retreat simultaneously.

In the end, Ranged can hunt everything and protect against everything (either camp a roof and be immune to cav, or run and be immune to inf, in the end it requires both a cav and an inf to kill a runner). Cav can only hunt 1h but that's not very effective. Most of the cavs are just ninja's, killing the unaware. They are only protected against melee. Inf can only hunt other inf and are protected against nothing.

When a melee kills a ranged, the only way it happened is because the ranged made an error :  not being aware, or waiting too long before fleeing. When a melee kills a cav, the cav shouldn't have attacked because the melee had a long enough weapon / wasn't really unaware.

Melee have the worst initiative. This should be balanced with damage / survivability etc. Most of their kills are purely defensive : someone else thought they'd kill you, and in the end you killed him. It's even worse for shielders that have to move with additionnal weight.

I'd really like to see some incentive for making more anti-archer and anti-crossbow chars. Shielders fail at this, because even though they are a little bit protected against ranged, they are totally helpless when it comes to actually kill them. Shieldless throwers are better anti-archers than 1h/shield. I say we need a buff to anti-archer throwing weapons (mid-low cut damage, low upkeep and good missile speed), a decrease in shield weight and an increase (more like a balance between round and non-round shields) in shield coverage (together with a slight nerf to the shield skill on shield coverage).


What is amusing is that people usually complain about poor class autobalance "all the archer and cav in one team, all the inf in the other" then say "classes are pretty much balanced". If classes really were balanced, disbalanced class teams wouldn't be a problem. Furthermore, solving this problem for cRPG with a tweak to the autobalance won't solve the issue for strat.

Offline bonekuukkeli

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Re: [POLL] About EU_1 Battle.Why its no fun anymore ? Or is it fun ?
« Reply #72 on: December 02, 2011, 01:26:34 pm »
0
Actually... I think option 1 is quite nice. 1-2 stacks of arrows / bolts should be enough and battles would actually be more interesting when after archer-fest there would be melee-smash!

Offline HarunYahya

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Re: [POLL] About EU_1 Battle.Why its no fun anymore ? Or is it fun ?
« Reply #73 on: December 02, 2011, 01:30:02 pm »
0
I like how I managed to redirect some of the archer hate towards xbows.

Two ideas I had to make turn and run less attractive for ranged would be

1)
Allowing ammo (arrows&bolts) only in the 3rd and 4th item slot. With that taking 3 ammo stacks is impossible and people would always have a spare slot for a melee weapon. It would fit the historical context too because I doubt that there were any ranged troops without a fallback melee weapon. Disadvantage some fellow dev brought up is that this reduces equipment layout choices. Obvious advantage is that it reduces the overall ammo count and the need for an archer to turn and run if he has no melee weapon.

2)
I'll ask cmp for the Native sprint mode code. Maybe we can make it so that someone with a bow or crossbow in the inventory has a slower sprint mode than a melee guy. With that even a lighter armored ranger can't simply run away, turn, shoot and run again. The melee guy would catch him quickly.
Actually i have an idea to lower projectile spam:

3)
Why not making quivers 2 slots but increasing +arrow bonus per heirlooms ?
Let's say 25 bodkins total when it is masterwork ?

This will not affect dedicated archers so much but this will lower the number of "Hey i fail at blocking and with 30+ arrows i can get an easy and lucky kill why shouldn't i just make an alt/stf or main to just shoot arrows to my teammates/enemy i don't care i'll just rain down arrows for the lulz" guys ?

I don't want to play without bagge,jambi,zerobot1(New pain in the ass:P),nebun,hetman,radh,KMC,Pandor,Sojetsu,Tenne,OktarBabuna etc...
I like having those skilled archers on my or enemy team they colorize the battlefield but unskilled lucky assholes who just raindown arrow is fucking it up and they'll suffer with 15 arrows till they play and learn archery very well by retiring multiple times and get a good amount of ammo !

DISCUSS !!!!
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 01:31:31 pm by koyama »

Offline bonekuukkeli

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Re: [POLL] About EU_1 Battle.Why its no fun anymore ? Or is it fun ?
« Reply #74 on: December 02, 2011, 01:31:36 pm »
0
Dedicated archers will always pick more arrows from ground when they run out, just make it work ok (not like nowdays when you pick one, you lose all. Buggy as hell). Like this... they need to come down from roof at some point.

Win-Win.