Author Topic: Post Patch balance issues. (TLTR: Nerf Archers,check Armour Weights)  (Read 6490 times)

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Offline Dezilagel

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Re: Post Patch balance issues. (TLTR: Nerf Archers,check Armour Weights)
« Reply #60 on: December 05, 2011, 10:15:31 pm »
+3
They dont.  You are forgetting the longer the distance of the shot the more archer has his damage reduced so youa r elooking at maximum point-blank damage.  WHile athletics (moving faster toward someone), wpf speed swing bonus, holding attack bonus, much easier to get head hits (especailly 1-handers) to get higher damage - all increase the damage multiplier.

Herp di derp.

Let's see here:

Which class gets speed bonus all the time since you need to constantly run towards them in order to have a chance to catch up? Archers.

Which class tends to stand and attack from camp elevated positions yielding damage bonus? Archers.

Which class has a stupid extra_penetration flag that makes enemy armor so much less effective? Archers.

Which class has the ability to deal this high unblockable damage from a hundered meters? Chuck Norris Archers.

And then we could go all about how attaining speed bonus in melee actually requires some footwork and skill, how ranged pierce damage seems to have bugged penetration values and yadayada; but the point is that trying to argue that melee does more damage than ranged cause of damage bonuses is stupid.
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Offline Paul

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Re: Post Patch balance issues. (TLTR: Nerf Archers,check Armour Weights)
« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2011, 11:35:15 pm »
+1
The damage increase from movement speed of a footman running towards an archer is small because the movement speed is relatively small compared to the projectile speed. Same for the gravity damage gain. Speed bonus from movement has a lot bigger impact on melee damage.

At 100m an archers does about 60% damage against a naked and significantly less against a well armored target because ranged basicly uses unnerfed (Native) soak armor values.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 11:40:45 pm by Paul »

Offline MrShine

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Re: Post Patch balance issues. (TLTR: Nerf Archers,check Armour Weights)
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2011, 01:11:27 am »
0
But because archers are so accurate and deadly from all but pretty extreme ranges, they're hanging out away from or above the battle in any place that has a view, and there's very little people can do about it. Force them to choose between a much weaker bow with good accuracy, or a strong bow with less accuracy, and it'll reduce the effectiveness of the "easy mode" archer, while still allowing smart, aware, good archers to be very effective (and to be counter-able).

I think that's where we're just going to have to disagree, because I don't think that archers are very accurate or deadly from extreme ranges.  Archers that are shooting from a hilltop a mile away are going to burn through their quiver very fast and probably won't get much to show for it.  Getting yourself in the correct location in battle that gives you a good shooting location while also keeping out of harms way is very difficult. Unless you roof camp!
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Offline Duke

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Re: Post Patch balance issues. (TLTR: Nerf Archers,check Armour Weights)
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2011, 01:15:22 am »
+1
A bad melee infantry is going to be close to useless, let alone being able to break even.

A bad archer, however, is much more effective. Find a safe place to point and shoot with the rest the archers, and even a bad archer is damaging opponents rather easily to at least break even in terms holding their own, especially if you consider that they are hitting the skilled players just as easily as they hit some useless players.

Uhhhhhhhh.... In my mind, a 'bad' archer would be missing their targets or even hitting their own teammates, the same as a 'bad' infantry. Your take on the subject is incredibly skewed.

Offline Zanze

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Re: Post Patch balance issues. (TLTR: Nerf Archers,check Armour Weights)
« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2011, 01:23:36 am »
+1
Play a gen as an archer, then complain. You'll see how fun it is to face off against throwers or plate. The same plate that just ate 8 of your bodkins, 2 to the face, and is still alive. Also, shooting from long range is too much on the chance of your prediction being correct.

Offline Thomek

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Re: Post Patch balance issues. (TLTR: Nerf Archers,check Armour Weights)
« Reply #65 on: December 06, 2011, 03:21:39 am »
+3
made an archer stf once..

It was ridiculously easy to get an even KD ratio even though I had zero experience in Archery in MP.

The worst was that I felt a little dirty every time i killed someone. My spine rotted away and my dick shrunk with every hit.
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Offline Kay of Sauvage

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Re: Post Patch balance issues. (TLTR: Nerf Archers,check Armour Weights)
« Reply #66 on: December 06, 2011, 05:03:01 am »
0
I think that's where we're just going to have to disagree, because I don't think that archers are very accurate or deadly from extreme ranges.  Archers that are shooting from a hilltop a mile away are going to burn through their quiver very fast and probably won't get much to show for it.  Getting yourself in the correct location in battle that gives you a good shooting location while also keeping out of harms way is very difficult. Unless you roof camp!

What is "a mile away"? I'm talking about where archers go every map. There's always hills or roofs that archers camp and seem to have no problem with the distance. The maps usually aren't huge. It's usually a central area of battle that is created by a wide circle of buildings with an open plaza in the middle, or a lane, etc.  There's very few where there's no hill or something that isn't comfortably in range of most of the targets. Even maps like Nord Town and that similar-looking native map with the boats and the docks have archers shooting at a longer distance than they usually need to in most maps as they sit up in the balconies around the roofs, yet they are picking each other off just fine (when they aren't shooting infantry).


Uhhhhhhhh.... In my mind, a 'bad' archer would be missing their targets or even hitting their own teammates, the same as a 'bad' infantry. Your take on the subject is incredibly skewed.

Call it an average/typical archer then. Obviously, someone who isn't more of a detriment to the team than helpful. Whatever.

Play a gen as an archer, then complain. You'll see how fun it is to face off against throwers or plate. The same plate that just ate 8 of your bodkins, 2 to the face, and is still alive. Also, shooting from long range is too much on the chance of your prediction being correct.

Zanze, Plate is tough to kill whatever class you are, and we can all complain how tough it is and say we all need to be buffed because of it. But that'd be an issue with plate being too powerful.


We're talking about the dominance of archers using such a simple, uneasily countered method.

Offline Arrowblood

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Re: Post Patch balance issues. (TLTR: Nerf Archers,check Armour Weights)
« Reply #67 on: December 06, 2011, 10:01:24 pm »
+2
archery is op and the longbow sucks at moment ,rusbow and  horn are op machineguns.

Offline MrShine

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Re: Post Patch balance issues. (TLTR: Nerf Archers,check Armour Weights)
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2011, 06:06:19 pm »
+2
What is "a mile away"? I'm talking about where archers go every map. There's always hills or roofs that archers camp and seem to have no problem with the distance. The maps usually aren't huge. It's usually a central area of battle that is created by a wide circle of buildings with an open plaza in the middle, or a lane, etc.  There's very few where there's no hill or something that isn't comfortably in range of most of the targets. Even maps like Nord Town and that similar-looking native map with the boats and the docks have archers shooting at a longer distance than they usually need to in most maps as they sit up in the balconies around the roofs, yet they are picking each other off just fine (when they aren't shooting infantry).

I think in part it depends on the map.  For example in Nord Town the team that starts on the boat runs into a funnel with a fence on the left and the houses on the right, and archers perched in the the roof/house have a straight line easy shot into the crowd.  I liked the ATS version of that map much more than the original native map.

Otherwise as an archer here are the targets that will always be relatively easy to hit regardless of range:
-Reloading xbowmen
-Bad archers (archers that stand in one place lining up their shot and firing
-Large clusters of infantry

Infantry/cavalry traveling in a predictable straight line are next in line on the 'ease to hit from longer distances' list.  Fast horses are a bit harder because you have to lead them a loooot, but straight lines in general are an archer's close friend.

But from that point you run into the the shots that are almost impossible to correctly predict from long distances, and frankly ones that are a bitch to get right even in closer distances.  They are:

-Good archers: I HATE having archer duels against good players, the trick is getting your shot 'ready' at the same time they are just stopping to line up their shot so hopefully you'll be able to get your shot off at their stationary target and then be able to dodge out of the way before their shot connects with you.  Otherwise it becomes a guessing game of which way they are going to strafe.

-Squirmy infantry: Some squirms are very effective, some are not.  There are tricks for archers to help increase their success rate against these guys, but especially at larger distances (not the point blank/closing type shots) good luck hitting someone focused on dodging like this.

-Squirmy cav.  In particular ones that will give you their front/back as a target instead of the broad side of the mount.  Just a few slight twists and turns can make cavalry very difficult to shoot, especially at longer distances because you need to give your shot so much lead time.  Granted horses are easier to hit than infantry because they are larger targets, but still not a cakewalk.

I should also mention that fighting these smarter players are a greater risk to an archer, because every split second of extra time I spend focusing on my aim and holding my draw is one split second longer that I become that stationary bad archer I talked about earlier that is just begging to be gunned down by another archer, an xbowmen, or a backstabbing cav.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The trend here is just like any other trend in this game: the newbie, predictable, less aware players are archer food (almost) regardless of range.  If you are an aware experienced player you probably fall into one of the later categories however, and you might be surprised to realize how many archers focusing you were required to take you down.  The next time you get killed try to keep a mental count of how many arrows whizzed by.  Kay I know that I hit you the most when you are riding in to lance someone because your approach (naturally) becomes a bit more normalized and predictable, but once you are 'out' my odds of plugging you or your horse go way down.
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Offline Kay of Sauvage

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Re: Post Patch balance issues. (TLTR: Nerf Archers,check Armour Weights)
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2011, 11:24:00 pm »
+2
I'm just concerned with how fun the gameplay is. The thing I see making things less fun is the feeling of constantly being surrounded by powerful archers (at least for anywhere the battle is taking place) with no good tactical way to neutralize their threat (not necessarily neutralizing them by killing them, but also by having a tactic to make them less effective or force them to make decisions that may put them at greater risk), and them being more of an annoyance than a fun part of the game.

There's no doubt in my mind that archers are strong. When I come in close to attack one, their non-vital shots will kill my champion courser in 2 to 4 shots. But I'm trying to let that be. I can live with powerful shots like that at close range. If archers need to be close to be that effective, then it puts them at a more risky position where they can be countered, or you can make them ineffective again by getting away from them or by staying away in the first place.

But the problem is that they aren't ineffective at the longer range. Any benefits for archers getting closer are greatly outweighed by the benefits of staying comfortably far away in the most convenient location available. As you say, and from what I see watching archers, the difficulty of shooting long range isn't so much about the inaccuracy of the arrow as it is about the movements of the target. I'd like to see some combination of long range  accuracy reduced or long range damage reduced, or different combinations of those 2 things offered by having very different bows available.

The goal here is to make camping archers ineffective if the enemy isn't near them. Just having targets in sight shouldn't be enough. There should be a closer effective range. No snipers. Then they will come off from those surrounding hillsides and somewhat distant rooftops and be part of the battle instead of standing on the sidelines taking deadly potshots like it's a shooting gallery game.

Offline Tzar

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Re: Post Patch balance issues. (TLTR: Nerf Archers,check Armour Weights)
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2011, 11:46:04 pm »
-2
I'm just concerned with how fun the gameplay is. The thing I see making things less fun is the feeling of constantly being surrounded by powerful archers (at least for anywhere the battle is taking place) with no good tactical way to neutralize their threat (not necessarily neutralizing them by killing them, but also by having a tactic to make them less effective or force them to make decisions that may put them at greater risk), and them being more of an annoyance than a fun part of the game.

There's no doubt in my mind that archers are strong. When I come in close to attack one, their non-vital shots will kill my champion courser in 2 to 4 shots. But I'm trying to let that be. I can live with powerful shots like that at close range. If archers need to be close to be that effective, then it puts them at a more risky position where they can be countered, or you can make them ineffective again by getting away from them or by staying away in the first place.

But the problem is that they aren't ineffective at the longer range. Any benefits for archers getting closer are greatly outweighed by the benefits of staying comfortably far away in the most convenient location available. As you say, and from what I see watching archers, the difficulty of shooting long range isn't so much about the inaccuracy of the arrow as it is about the movements of the target. I'd like to see some combination of long range  accuracy reduced or long range damage reduced, or different combinations of those 2 things offered by having very different bows available.

The goal here is to make camping archers ineffective if the enemy isn't near them. Just having targets in sight shouldn't be enough. There should be a closer effective range. No snipers. Then they will come off from those surrounding hillsides and somewhat distant rooftops and be part of the battle instead of standing on the sidelines taking deadly potshots like it's a shooting gallery game.


This and remove ladders plz
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Offline Paul

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Re: Post Patch balance issues. (TLTR: Nerf Archers,check Armour Weights)
« Reply #71 on: December 08, 2011, 10:57:31 am »
0
cRPG air friction parameter is already 50% higher than in Native and the Native value seems to be taken from the real world. That means ranged do lose damage on distance - especially against armored targets thanks to the (different to melee) high soak value. Unless your idea of the ideal damage gradient is that archers and crossbowmen should only do damage within like a 5m radius. We have to give them (sawed-off) shotgun spread then though.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 11:03:16 am by Paul »

Offline Tydeus

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Re: Post Patch balance issues. (TLTR: Nerf Archers,check Armour Weights)
« Reply #72 on: December 08, 2011, 05:09:28 pm »
+2
Which class has a stupid extra_penetration flag that makes enemy armor so much less effective? Archers.
The biggest issue I have with all ranged having the extra_penetration flag, is how fast they're able to brutally murder shields. I have a hybrid 2h/1h build specifically for ranged and my shield breaks from just a few arrows, practically making it pointless to even have the thing, not to mention it's fairly easy to shoot around it. I can stare at the ground and block most hits, but if theres even one more enemy near, regardless of who else is with me and despite all my efforts, it's rather common that I get shot around it.
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Offline Moncho

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Re: Post Patch balance issues. (TLTR: Nerf Archers,check Armour Weights)
« Reply #73 on: December 08, 2011, 05:47:01 pm »
0
Play a gen as an archer, then complain. You'll see how fun it is to face off against throwers or plate. The same plate that just ate 8 of your bodkins, 2 to the face, and is still alive. Also, shooting from long range is too much on the chance of your prediction being correct.
This, and also the plated ballerines, WTF!!

Offline Lech

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Re: Post Patch balance issues. (TLTR: Nerf Archers,check Armour Weights)
« Reply #74 on: December 08, 2011, 06:08:44 pm »
0
This, and also the plated ballerines, WTF!!

You guys don't have looms, do you ?