Author Topic: The Useless Longbow  (Read 12217 times)

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Offline Z_E_N

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Re: The Useless Longbow
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2011, 04:01:32 am »
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As far as accuracy goes I would agree with bruce.  Archery wasn't really used on a 1v1 basis during this time period, it was more of a line-up-everyone and hope that a few of them hit the big mass of enemies coming your way.

However, because this games doesn't have huge masses of enemies in multiplayer all charging your direction with no regard to what you are shooting...I would say the accuracy needs to be bumped up a notch to put this bow on par with others. 

Offline bruce

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Re: The Useless Longbow
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2011, 04:02:30 am »
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Anyway, the longbow's problem is that it simply doesn't justify its existence over warbow which does, well, close to the same damage while firing much much faster. So eh... maybe increasing its speed a few notches again would help.

It really was painfully slow when I tried it, basically senseless to use next to the warbow (and I preferred a heirloomed strongbow over all of them).


« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 04:12:26 am by bruce »
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Offline Archaneus

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Re: The Useless Longbow
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2011, 04:22:40 am »
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@Bruce - Okay, there are a couple of problems here.  First, I think you'll find you're taking a combative angle and implying you are disagreeing with my statements when mostly you aren't.  You are absolutely right that arbalests had extreme range, but so what?  We are not discussing arbalests, we are discussing standard crossbows, and specifically those represented in the game, something an arbalest most certainly was not.  The arbalest was the pinnacle of the crossbow, not an early model, so to speak.  I do concede however, that I perhaps should have pointed that out.

I think you'll find you agreed with me in your second point.  You basically just said a longer version of what I said.  All your points but one amount to them being easier to use, not better.  You're right, they offer superior armor penetration which was an actual superiority, everything else about them, however, was ease of use, not quality.  As you yourself said, they are slower to fire and despite what you claim they indeed did have inferior range, albeit partly because of the way they were used.  Bows were fired in arcs as bombardment, crossbows were fired in shorter range in straighter arcs.  Your point about siege is important, however.  This is why they were mainly used for this and less so for open field engagements.  I don't know how you can disagree with that without historical ignorance.

As for your third point, you read into my comment something that was not there.  I didn't say they were inbred hicks that used them, I said they were easier to use, exactly what you said.  Longbowmen trained their whole lives.  Crossbowmen, not so much, because, as you rightly point out, they didn't have to.  This was the advantage of the crossbow.  It was easier, exactly what I said.  Again, you are reading implications into my statements that are not there.  It's true that crossbowmen became more and more relied upon as time went by, but this was a slow transition over time, and yes, after awhile crossbowmen became the norm over longbowmen in mainland Europe.  So?  If you compare the first hand accounts you'll see the French were slaughtered by English longbowmen thousands at a time.  You can go read first hand accounts of French soldiers talking about how they came to fear the sound of the arrows in the thousands raining down on their lines and how they could find no shelter from them.  They also couldn't respond in kind very well.  Why?  Inferior range.  If I recall correctly, I believe they referred to the sound as that of a horde of bees descending upon them.  You'll find historians who specialize in this era crediting it as England's main advantage.

Your final point about the reason for missing in the game is well made.

*Edit* Seeing as this started as merely my attempt at correcting a couple of statements made and is not directly related to balance, I'm not going to bother with continuing this back and forth if indeed Bruce does respond.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 04:28:44 am by Archaneus »

Offline Heroin

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Re: The Useless Longbow
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2011, 05:44:10 am »
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Just a quick comment. I looked up the whole "arbalest" thing. What we refer to as the "Sniper Crossbow" is fairly close in form and function to the arbalest. Furthermore, a skilled "arbalestier" could fire approximately 1 shot every 30 seconds. This is about where the sniper xbow was pre-patch:

10-15 second load time, followed by 15 seconds to acquire a target, aim, track movement, and fire.
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Offline Kophka

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Re: The Useless Longbow
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2011, 06:25:47 am »
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As far as accuracy goes I would agree with bruce.  Archery wasn't really used on a 1v1 basis during this time period, it was more of a line-up-everyone and hope that a few of them hit the big mass of enemies coming your way.

However, because this games doesn't have huge masses of enemies in multiplayer all charging your direction with no regard to what you are shooting...I would say the accuracy needs to be bumped up a notch to put this bow on par with others. 

See that's the flaw here. I say we remove the reticule from the longbow entirely, and lower the damage to 10. In return, every arrow fired from the longbow turns into 10 arrows, in a volley style attack. Seems ok, yeah?

Offline MountedRhader

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Re: The Useless Longbow
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2011, 07:12:34 am »
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I say we flat out give them a minigun. sure not to miss then  :D

Offline Joxer

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Re: The Useless Longbow
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2011, 07:51:04 am »
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Bruce: Longbows were very usefull against mail and with proper arrows somewhat usefull against plate too.
Archaneus: Also mongol bows in general are as powerfull as longbows. That's due to the design. If the claim is that they weren't good at long range then only reason that could be is because of difference in arrows. Afaik mongols didn't ride up to the enemy and shoot them point blank. They mostly stayed out of the range of enemy archers. Also you fail to mention the one and only thing that makes traditional mongol bow not as good as a longbow is the fact that it cant be used in rain. The glue holding the thing would just melt off.
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Offline MountedRhader

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Re: The Useless Longbow
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2011, 08:10:06 am »
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New tactic: Fight khergits in rain only.  :mrgreen:

Offline Bcleary

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Re: The Useless Longbow
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2011, 04:32:11 am »
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To the original poster, archery in no way needs a buff. Your Strategy is what needs a buff. As a longbowman myself I scare people with a 8 PD build and get 1-4 kills a round. Usually I can get atleast 3 good hits in. It isn't you chose one guy and aim the whole way he is likely to disapear or be close enough to hurt. The correct way is to see everyone in front of you and choose who you will shoot as the arrows comes up right before it is released not when you take it out of the bag.
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Offline Engine

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Re: The Useless Longbow
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2011, 02:12:45 pm »
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Dear chadz,

Whatever you did to make archers so upset about longbows, please do that same thing to all the other bows.

Much love!

Offline [ptx]

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Re: The Useless Longbow
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2011, 03:17:09 pm »
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Well, my archer alt has been a longbowman for a very long time now, including pre-patch. Currently have a Fine Longbow. My MW longbow felt very powerful and nice, before the archery buff (and heirloom theft :( ), now that arrow damage bonus has been increased massively, longbow no longer has such a damage advantage over other bows and using warbow or strongbow is far more practical...
A solution, imho, would be to move the damage back to bows, rather than arrows, so that the damage difference between different bows is relatively greater.
TBH, playing with a MW longbow, the damage felt just fine before the buff, i could kill people in mail in 2 arrows, naked people and peasants - in 1, which felt appropriate for a hard-hitter such as longbow. Warbow and strongbow users did quite a bit less damage, but then they can fire a lot faster and easier.
And yes, iirc, chadz did promise some accuracy buff for bows...

Offline Dexxtaa

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Re: The Useless Longbow
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2011, 05:33:00 pm »
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MrShovelFace uses the longbow to shotgun people.
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Offline EponiCo

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Re: The Useless Longbow
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2011, 09:00:16 pm »
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Like the Welsh did.
Run out of the forest, shoot an Englishman point blanc, run back into the forest.

Offline Rogue_Eagle

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Re: The Useless Longbow
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2011, 12:53:09 am »
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imo they should make warbow and longbow pierce again.

Offline bruce

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Re: The Useless Longbow
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2011, 01:05:32 am »
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Imo they should boost throwing, damage is too low, should be at least double.
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