War: Druzhina Vs FCC

[Darkkarma]

I did read all your previous post which is where I got a lot of the information for my previous post in this thread. And yes, I think you broke your agreement without what I personally consider good reason. Which is why I'm asking if there's any more information here that I'm missing. If I got anything wrong with my theory so far or if I'm missing information, I'd like to know. If I've actually got everything explained correctly, then it's simply that you and whoever made the judgement call has a different opinion of what justifies breaking an NAP than I do.

If breaking your word to a faction that left it's territory up north to come down to help you,  saved you from getting wiped out(we also helped you mediate and write up the rules of said treaty), and helped defeat a another common foe on a different front only because you felt the war didn't last long enough for them to deserve it doesn't seem like good enough reason for a clan you considered a friend to support it allies against you, (ANOTHER faction that you rubbed the wrong way through bad diplomacy), then we'd honestly better just agree to disagree, my friend.

[Gheritarish le Loki]

Drz and Chaos you can praize the almighty dankey, thanks the mule, and bless the gold/gear wipe!!

[Dehitay]

a faction that left it's territory up north to come down to help you,  saved you from getting wiped out(we also helped you mediate and write up the rules of said treaty)

This is really the part that I'm really curious about. I know it's possible that the FCC could have gotten wiped out with the Merc war, so Chaos' assitance would have been appreciated. But other than the treaty negotiations, I'm not sure what they did. If they actually brought down troops and resources, then they did indeed make a huge contribution. But nobody has so far said that they did so. If they simply joined in on the battles and helped with the peace process, I don't see how this interferes with their work up north. Now if they had villages up north and they lost them cause they gave resources to FCC, then yes, they should be recompensated. Or if they were planning on taking something with their resources but redirected them to the FCC for the Merc war, it would be sensible to recompensate them. But if they didn't actually move resources around to help the FCC, then it would have been entirely possible to do whatever they were doing up north, merc for the FCC during the end of the Merc war, and negotiate the peace process all at the same time. So I guess what I really want to know is:

Did Chaos give resources to the FCC?

[Syls]

From what I know what Chaos did was to get 9000 troops down south to force diplomatic discussion with the Merc.

[Anti]

I think FCC and Chaos had to bribe the MERCs into peace with all their lands. Thats why FCC moved north and and fucked with ATS.


'least thats how I see it.

[VVarlord]

I think FCC and Chaos had to bribe the MERCs into peace with all their lands. Thats why FCC moved north and and fucked with ATS.


'least thats how I see it.

Correct. Slimey amerimy old friends.

[Darkkarma]

Let me put it this way, we amassed all of our troops at the time, ( roughly 8k) moved out of our villages, abandoning our former diplomatic discussions with DRZ (Fenada was taken instantly)and the 22nd about land all in order to come down and give them to BRD in any way they saw fit. At that point we were fully committed to the BRD/Merc war, as we would not have had the resources so early in strat to fend off two war machines in the 22nd, and DRZ on our borders in addition to fighting off an equally formidable force in the Mercs(this is why we were conflicted for a while on what course of action to take in this war).


The Mercs already knew about CHAOS and our reputation in the NA community and was hesitant to have this dragged out any further. And no, BRD getting wiped out had CHAOS not jumped in was not only a possibility, but almost a guaranteed fact(I say almost because nothing can be known for a 100 percent certainty). The Mercs were getting insane amounts of troops from their EU friends and would have easily had enough numbers to take your already weakened villages.To be honest, I don't think the Mercs were aware at the time, but if they'd gotten past that 8-9k army, it probably would have been game over for all of us. Even after the other opportunistic clans jumped on them, it still wasn't enough to stop the Mercs(go look up the "and people Finally Show Their True Colors.." thread to get an idea of how many attacked.) Both Kesh and Matey even admitted on multiple occasions before this war broke out that CHAOS was largely responsible for ending the FCC Merc war, a war in which you guys were on the brink of defeat. I can't comment on which resources we gave to you during the war, aside from committing our troops as i'm not sure of that.

[Keshian]

This is really the part that I'm really curious about. I know it's possible that the FCC could have gotten wiped out with the Merc war, so Chaos' assitance would have been appreciated. But other than the treaty negotiations, I'm not sure what they did. If they actually brought down troops and resources, then they did indeed make a huge contribution. But nobody has so far said that they did so. If they simply joined in on the battles and helped with the peace process, I don't see how this interferes with their work up north. Now if they had villages up north and they lost them cause they gave resources to FCC, then yes, they should be recompensated. Or if they were planning on taking something with their resources but redirected them to the FCC for the Merc war, it would be sensible to recompensate them. But if they didn't actually move resources around to help the FCC, then it would have been entirely possible to do whatever they were doing up north, merc for the FCC during the end of the Merc war, and negotiate the peace process all at the same time. So I guess what I really want to know is:

Did Chaos give resources to the FCC?

No, but they marched closer to Mercs and said they would attack as they were with us and then immediately started talking peace with them and basically got us to the peace talks by saying they would probably not want to keep "fighting" if we couldn't get to some sort of agreement.  We appreciated their help and wanted to be allies but they said no.  Then they came to us later and mentioned the Merc thing in reference to why we "owed" them Rebache as we never would have negotiated getting the thousands of troops from the Mercs in return for our fiefs if they hadn't gotten involved. 

After taking a day to think about it we offered it in return for a  non-aggression pact with DRZ as they could attack us within 3-4 days and we would have lost our most defensible village to their ally without bleeding any troops from DRZ.  Of course they said no because they were already planning their attack as they ahd been housing Hospitallers and Occitan already as soon as they took the 5 fiefs they had (DRZ gave none to Chaos, I guess they didn't "owe" them any).

[Darkkarma]

Kesh you can say what you want about the deal, but the Mercs wouldn't even talk to you at that point. You were in no position to bargain for anything, especially after you started the war and were quite frankly getting your asses kicked even with the at the time rag tag group of clans you promised merc land if and when you guys defeated them.Why would the Mercs trade you your lands for thousands of troops when they could just crush you underfoot and take all of your fiefs with relative ease?? Logic, Kesh. Use it please.

The whole "plotting your downfall in advance" remark is honestly such a crock of shit that it's not even worth dignifying with a thought out response.

I'm going to let you get your Rupert Murdoch style spin on this and be done with it Kesh. I frankly don't have the energy or desire to do this anymore. To be honest, had deal, a person I respect not asked for my clans side of the story, I would not have even bothered talking about it anymore.

See you on the field, you red-haired one-girl spin machine.

[espooo]

I don't see why the arguments are still going. Strat gold and items are getting wiped. But from what I have been reading, Dehitay got most of his info right. Let's hope this all straitens out...

(click to show/hide)

But it was/is definitely fun destroying chaos in strat 

[Daniel]

Kesh you can say what you want about the deal, but the Mercs wouldn't even talk to you at that point. You were in no position to bargain for anything, especially after you started the war and were quite frankly getting your asses kicked even with the at the time rag tag group of clans you promised merc land if and when you guys defeated them.Why would the Mercs trade you your lands for thousands of troops when they could just crush you underfoot and take all of your fiefs with relative ease?? Logic, Kesh. Use it please.

The whole "plotting your downfall in advance" remark is honestly such a crock of shit that it's not even worth dignifying with a thought out response.

I'm going to let you get your Rupert Murdoch style spin on this and be done with it Kesh. I frankly don't have the energy or desire to do this anymore. To be honest, had deal, a person I respect not asked for my clans side of the story, I would not have even bothered talking about it anymore.

See you on the field, you red-haired one-girl spin machine.

....I came.

[Keshian]

Kesh you can say what you want about the deal, but the Mercs wouldn't even talk to you at that point. You were in no position to bargain for anything, especially after you started the war and were quite frankly getting your asses kicked even with the at the time rag tag group of clans you promised merc land if and when you guys defeated them.Why would the Mercs trade you your lands for thousands of troops when they could just crush you underfoot and take all of your fiefs with relative ease?? Logic, Kesh. Use it please.


See you on the field, you red-haired one-girl spin machine.

We had just killed 12000 of them and only lost 1 village, and still had thousands of troops left ourselves.  Who is running the spin machine then?  Part of the reason you had been willing to get involved at that point was that we had killed off so many of them ( you didnt know at the time that the Mercs ahd just bought another 4000 more troops with cRPG gold from one of the western EU clans), you basically said whoever takes the land gets it and since you were better situated to go on the offensive you were going to make claim to Dhirim area and the surrounding villages (you needed to get out of your constrained area and be able to claim a city more than a need to help us who had been fighting for weeks at that time). 

You marched straight south to start grabbing two of the merc fiefs, when those new 4000 troops the Mercs bought showed up and you immediately started talking peace and convinced us to join in because otherwise you would not continue the "war".  This is not spin but as abre bones facts as I can make it from our discussions with you.  We had settled on the idea of losing Dhirim to you as long as we got someone else actually fighting the mercs.

And like I said we appreciated all of this, and even though we had never promised Rebache we had offered it in return for some peace and quiet through a non-aggression pact for 2 weeks which your allies could not agree to because they were already planning to attack us as they underestimated us just like everyone else has since strategus has started.

[Kalam]

 Sure, we've got our trolls, and you have yours. Let's ignore that.

 Ultimately, we're in this war because we were asked to hand over a fief knowing that we would be attacked by the north without an extended non-aggression pact or alliance. The only difference is that we wouldn't have had Rebache when Druzhina finally attacked us. So we asked for an alliance. There was clearly some misunderstanding in the wording, but here we are. As CHAOS has mentioned, CHAOS means business. You're serious about winning, and we know Druzhina are, too.
 
 I mean, if there was no attack intended, you wouldn't have minded giving us some sort of commitment, would you?

 Now, it's clear that we see this very differently from you do. I'm not sure how to re-conciliate our separate versions of what happened, but at some point, I would like to see us try. As of now, I still don't have a clear view of the entire debacle.

 Why I care: I still want to see us working together in the future, and just forgetting it then won't erase the hidden hurt feelings that would threaten any relationship.

  Well, that's enough talk for the forums. I'll talk to everyone (my own included) tonight. For now, I've got to go out of town.

[Tears of Destiny]

You should both just never forgive one another and swear to become life long enemies.

[Thucydides]

You should both just never forgive one another and swear to become life long enemies.

eternal blood war mmm