Author Topic: Why do we even need upkeep anymore?  (Read 37123 times)

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Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Why do we even need upkeep anymore?
« Reply #330 on: September 14, 2011, 02:41:39 am »
+1
Hi, so you guys are all talking about what it's like as a new player. I'm a new player. I started playing a few days ago and had literally just got some decent (and not even tincan) gear with a danish great sword and then I hit level 26 and I can't use any of it. I played for about 20 minutes at x3 multiplyer and lost about 2000 of my 16000 gold. The real problem, is that with the current way of gaining money there is a limit on how much you can make no matter how well you do so it's impossible to out weigh the upkeep. With the old system you could gain money if you did well and then you would be able to outweigh the cost of tin-canning.

You say it gives the game more variation. It doesn't. It makes it so that everyone has to wear trash armor and there's no point in the equipment system whatsoever.

 I don't want to wear leather, I want to be a knight. Why put in the plate and then make it un-usable? Learn to balance items around their stats and not just take the easy way out.

Make the plate armor/plated charger/etc much more expensive and remove upkeep. Otherwise - to me personally - this mod is broken.

(Oh and the guy above me is right, even when I do wear the good armor I still get mowed because I'm not as good as the vets)

Good post, but I have a few issues.
First off, The Devs want to lower the amount of heavy armour for various reasons, plate is supposed to be difficult to keep because it is among the best protection. I also want to point out that the "pro" players should mow down lesser skilled players, as this is a skill based mod.
If everyone could be a plate knight then the fights would take longer, new people would crutch on armour and improve fighting skills less, and fights would move away from the more medieval look we have now and towards a weird battlefield where most melee players are tin cans, rendering the lesser armours rather pointless.

+1 for the feedback though.
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Offline Acera

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Re: Why do we even need upkeep anymore?
« Reply #331 on: September 14, 2011, 02:48:53 am »
+1
The only reason the lesser armors would be pointless is because the tin can armor isn't balanced. If the weight costs actually made a big difference then there would be a perfectly good reason to not be a tin can. For example, currently you need 16 str to wear the heavy plate. You need 18 str to carry a long bow. This means that a plate melee can if they want be basically as fast if not faster than a pure archer with a long bow wearing light armor.

The simple balance would be to make it heavier and therefore slower. Tin can doesn't make you invincible. Earlier some guy from a clan killed me with a club. /shame

Offline Bobthehero

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Re: Why do we even need upkeep anymore?
« Reply #332 on: September 14, 2011, 02:51:53 am »
+1
Its already slowing you down, it reduce your wpf as well.
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Offline polkafranzi

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Re: Why do we even need upkeep anymore?
« Reply #333 on: September 14, 2011, 02:52:30 am »
+1
Earlier some guy from a clan killed me with a club. /shame

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Offline Acera

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Re: Why do we even need upkeep anymore?
« Reply #334 on: September 14, 2011, 03:00:49 am »
+1
I know it already does that, but if it's still an issue just make it worse. Also, I understand what you mean about a medieval battlefield where only a few were knightly and the rest were peasants - but is it fair that only the people that played before upkeep and have millions of gold in the bank get to use the good armor?

I'm perfectly fine with literally gaining almost no money while I'm using my plate, and then if I do want to save some have to take it off and use leather. But not being able to use it at all or until ive spent hours playing without it doesn't seem fun to me - and after all isn't that the point of playing a game?

Offline polkafranzi

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Re: Why do we even need upkeep anymore?
« Reply #335 on: September 14, 2011, 03:04:54 am »
+1
I know it already does that, but if it's still an issue just make it worse. Also, I understand what you mean about a medieval battlefield where only a few were knightly and the rest were peasants - but is it fair that only the people that played before upkeep and have millions of gold in the bank get to use the good armor?

I'm perfectly fine with literally gaining almost no money while I'm using my plate, and then if I do want to save some have to take it off and use leather. But not being able to use it at all or until ive spent hours playing without it doesn't seem fun to me - and after all isn't that the point of playing a game?

Yes, it is, but people will just keep referring back to the same sob story of "pre-january cRPG where people went all day in full tincan bla bla bla QQ  :cry:". We (read devs) need to find a balance, cos both ends of the spectrum are fail. 
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Offline Bobthehero

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Re: Why do we even need upkeep anymore?
« Reply #336 on: September 14, 2011, 03:11:34 am »
+1
There wasnt any ''everyone was in plate back then'' there's in fact more plater now than before, I personally don't mind, but whiners will whine.
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Offline polkafranzi

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Re: Why do we even need upkeep anymore?
« Reply #337 on: September 14, 2011, 03:13:37 am »
+1
There wasnt any ''everyone was in plate back then'' there's in fact more plater now than before, I personally don't mind, but whiners will whine.

Again, it's a geographical argument, I play Eu and yes, lots of guys did run around in plate pre-Jan.  Your p.o.v. is NA, i'm sure it's different.
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Re: Why do we even need upkeep anymore?
« Reply #338 on: September 14, 2011, 03:19:18 am »
+1
PRe jan there wasnt NA servers, remember?
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Offline polkafranzi

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Re: Why do we even need upkeep anymore?
« Reply #339 on: September 14, 2011, 03:22:41 am »
+1
PRe jan there wasnt NA servers, remember?

Didn't even look xD

Just played Eu since June 2010, never took notice, my bad.

Good old favourites tab.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 03:24:42 am by polkafranzi »
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Why do we even need upkeep anymore?
« Reply #340 on: September 14, 2011, 03:23:56 am »
+3
Make the plate armor/plated charger/etc much more expensive and remove upkeep. Otherwise - to me personally - this mod is broken.

I think there is the mistake in your thoughts.

You know, balancing comes from balance. And balance always exists between two things.

What you are suggesting is a balance between you and the game, like in single player. You invest time and effort, and get rewarded by better equipment. For you personally this is nice, of course.

But you always have to balance out not only you and the game (the game = your gaming experience), but also you and your fellow players.

Let me just make an exeggarated example about what I mean.

Imagine you were a nerd without any real life, playing all the time. And imagine there would be an item, called the "Holy Hand Grenade of Antiochia". Once thrown, all enemies on the map die. This item costs 10.000.000 gold. So you would need to farm... I don't know how long. But after months ingame, you would finally get the item!

To you this seems fair. You worked hard for it, now you shall recieve your reward. Being fair is to be understood like being balanced in our case. It has the equal meaning.

But now imagine how all your opponents would feel like. Would they think it's fair they spawn and a second later they die (like white, bloodthirsty rabbits) because you throw the holy hand grenade? They would think it's unfair, which - as we stated - means it would be unbalanced. And yes, sure it is. Your opponents do not care about how long you had to grind for this item, because as soon as it's on the battlefield (and with your suggestion it would never leave it, too!) they have the problem with you and your item, and it doesn't matter if you got this item by grinding a year, hacking, winning a contest or giving head to chadz, there is a shift in power and thus in balance, no matter what enabled you to cause it.

The thing I want to tell you: you can't balance the game by things you basically have unlimited access to. Because gold (and experience) are basing on time, and - at least concerning the matter of balancing cRPG - you got infinite time, as it's only you who is limiting it. So there is actually no balancing at all.

But before you try to defend yourself: in my opinion upkeep is a bad way to balance things, too. You made the perfectly right sentence that items are to be balanced over their stats. Balancing their "availability" (by price, upkeep, drop chance or whatever) doesn't work. Because availability is always only a matter of time.

And yes, before some Einstein comes and says that RPGs are meant to have those time based differences in player power: of course! It's always a matter of personal (= the developer's) taste. I currently play Global Agenda, a SciFi 3rd-person-shooter-hybrid between Team Fortress 2 and World of Warcraft. You get loot by visiting instances in groups with different classes, gaining experience points, crafting items and so on, but you shoot yourself, there is no tab-targetting. Levels go from 1 to 50.

In GA a player with level 10 and good aiming has quite a chance against a player with lvl 50. The best epic rifle does only 3% more base damage + 12% additional damage, which is 15,36% more damage overall. So with better aiming you still got a chance against a lvl 50.

Now try to fight a lvl 50 WoW character with a lvl 10 character.  :wink:

And in our case the developers have decided in the pre-upkeep era, that the time based differences between plate and new players are too big. So they lowered them. Which is basically okay, in my opinion. I just don't agree to both the developer's and your suggestion.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 03:28:58 am by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Why do we even need upkeep anymore?
« Reply #341 on: September 14, 2011, 03:27:24 am »
+1
OMG I quoted instead of editing. Please delete  :oops:  :lol:
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Acera

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Re: Why do we even need upkeep anymore?
« Reply #342 on: September 14, 2011, 03:30:17 am »
+1
Yeah later I said it needs to be actually balanced. As well as just monetarily.  But also I got to tin can armor in a couple of days playing a lot. That's silly since in order for the game to last a long time from a players perspective it should take more time than that.

Anyway yeh you didn't seem to catch my later posts about balancing the plate around it's speed when compared with that of light armor.

Offline Joker86

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Re: Why do we even need upkeep anymore?
« Reply #343 on: September 14, 2011, 03:43:52 am »
+1
Yes, but only because it needed time to type my wall of text.  :mrgreen:
Joker makes a very good point.
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Re: Why do we even need upkeep anymore?
« Reply #344 on: September 14, 2011, 03:47:09 am »
+1
Then you sir, are forgiven! :)